In “Pros & Cons of Long Tenure at Same Company,” Michelle shares how she built an HR organization from scratch and the lessons she learned across leadership roles at ASAP Software, Dell, GiveForward, and CompPsych. A graduate of Indiana University and Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management, Michelle reflects on the advantages and challenges of staying with one company for 16 years, the importance of aligning HR with business needs, and why self-advocacy, curiosity, and developing others are essential for long-term success. Her perspective offers valuable guidance for HR leaders and executives navigating career growth and organizational change.
For the full interview: https://ocns.co/cpo-michelle-anastasi-pros-cons-of-long-tenure-at-same-company/
10 Min Clip Transcript
Michael Mitchel: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Michael Mitchell. I launched the podcast Exploring Talent in 2019. In 2021. I renamed it CXO Conversations. Hope you enjoy this episode and will subscribe to CXO conversations. For more great interviews, visit oc national search.com or your favorite podcast platform and subscribe. Enjoy.
Michelle Anastasi: All right.
I’m gonna kick it.
Michael Mitchel: Welcome to Exploring Talent, where you will hear directly from those at the top of their profession to learn from their experiences, insight, advice, and how to apply to your career regardless of your profession. I’m Michael Mitchell, owner of OT Executive Search, and for over 20 years I’ve been interviewing leaders in their field.
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I’m at the groovy historic converter warehouse. That is the headquarters for me in downtown Denver. That’s right in between the ballpark RiNo and LoDo neighborhoods. Join us today. I’m exploring talent, is Chief People Officer Michelle Anasi. Michelle is an outgoing CPO who has worked at Com. Psych Give Forward Dell, and.
ASAP software among other companies. We’re going to discuss matters ranging from the pros and cons of staying with a company for an extended length of time, creating an HR organization from scratch, and the lessons that she’s learned throughout her career. Michelle earned a business administration degree from Indiana University and MBA from Northwestern’s, Kellogg School of Management.
Join us Welcome to the conversation, Michelle. Um, please, uh, let’s kick it off by sharing an interesting fact about yourself to our listeners.
Michelle Anastasi: Well, thank you Michael. I’m pleased to be here and, Hmm, an [00:03:00] interesting fact. I once had a bear walk into my house while I was home. So that’s one of the more interesting moments in my life when you’re confronted face to face with a bear in your kitchen.
Uh, it was a funny moment because all the lights were off. I just heard kind of rustling and ran down the stairs. My mom ran down the stairs and we flipped on the lights, and that’s when we saw the bear in the kitchen. Luckily, it was on its way out, but it had taken a garbage bag full of food, um, a big bag of cat food, and it just sat down on our, on our patio and ate.
But, uh. It was, you know, imagine the surprise.
Michael Mitchel: This was not in Denver.
Michelle Anastasi: It was not in Denver. No. I grew up in a small New England town in the woods. So
Michael Mitchel: there you go. That explains it. So first off, please briefly introduce me to our, uh, to our listeners and everyone.
Michelle Anastasi: Absolutely. So immersive technologies is changing the way teams and work learn through a wireless collaboration platform.
Uh, we’re [00:04:00] basically transforming meeting spaces into collaboration hubs that allow people to work in really dynamic and productive ways. So, for example, uh, multiple people can simultaneously share multiple pieces of content, uh, wirelessly and from any device.
Michael Mitchel: So let’s dive right into things. I’m really looking for this conversation.
You were at a software company for 16 years. What role were you initially hired for?
Michelle Anastasi: Initially I was right outta business school and I was hired into the accounting department. It was a 50 person company at the time. So I was doing, um, credit collections, you know, things like that for a year before I raised my hand to do more.
At that time, I had, uh, reached out to the CEO, noticed that we had grown from maybe 50 to 80 employees and suggested that we needed an HR department. So that’s kind of how it all started.
Michael Mitchel: And so when you said that, he said,
Michelle Anastasi: yeah, he should have said, you’re terribly unqualified and [00:05:00] experienced. But, um, the truth is, you know, a lot of serendipity has to do with everything.
And unbeknownst to me, he had received. A Department of Labor complaint, uh, for a work related labor issue. And so when I suggested we need an HR department, uh, you know, it, it seemed like a good idea. So at the time,
Michael Mitchel: were you expecting that he was going to anoint you or were you playing for that or,
Michelle Anastasi: I mean, I was hopeful it was the kind of place that seemed to value, um.
People that were smart, wanted to work hard. It, you know, it was a small startup environment. So good ideas did get accepted. And, um, you know, I was naive at the time, at the beginning of my career, but I thought, why not? Uh, why not? I had had, you know, a couple of classes in undergrad and felt like I could, uh, kind of figure it out.
So ultimately he agreed and I embarked upon, you know, pulling together the company’s first HR department.
Michael Mitchel: So you went to [00:06:00] him with saying, we need hr, and you were like, and I’ll do it.
Michelle Anastasi: Correct.
Michael Mitchel: Okay. Yeah.
Michelle Anastasi: Crazy. Right? So you
Michael Mitchel: seized the, you saw, you saw a white space and you’re like, okay, let’s do, okay.
Excellent. Because it was the start of a, a. That’s a very successful career.
Michelle Anastasi: Absolutely. Okay. Now I was in the right place at the right time and uh, you know, he was the right person. He turned out to be a really important mentor to me. He had previously worked at HP and knew what great HR practices were in the eighties and early nineties.
So, um, I found in him a mentor in, in many ways, but of course I also had to seek mentorship outside the organization for HR expertise in particular.
Michael Mitchel: So how did you go about building HR from the ground up?
Michelle Anastasi: Um, yeah, well I started, you know, it’s startup again. So I really started with prioritizing the needs of the business, um, which we’re hiring.
We were growing quickly. The company itself was growing 40% year over year. Uh, you know, and we were in the, the, you know, millions and then hundreds [00:07:00] of millions of dollars in revenue, so it was. Quite, quite a big growth rate. We went from, um, a couple of offices domestically to 40 offices. Domestically, we went from just us to multinational.
Uh, so hiring was absolutely the first priority. I figured that out quickly. Also, behind the scenes, something that people generally care less about, but I knew was important would be compliance issues, making sure that, uh, we had a rock solid, you know, kind of function that would be doing things the correct way.
So that’s how I kicked it off.
Michael Mitchel: So you, you started off with the hiring, then you moved on to compliance. Um, were these things that you had strategically mapped out or was it more organically kind of running from one short-term need to the next, putting on fires? How did that, how’d you come up with that?
With a, with a priority list?
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah. I, I was lucky enough to be connected with an outside mentor for hr, a group that did some HR consulting, and so they helped me with the basic [00:08:00] saying. You know, this isn’t, this isn’t exciting or sexy for your executives, but you are gonna have to, you know, create employment files with I nines.
You’re gonna have to, you know, just do certain things. So, um, you know, had that voice in my head and I also had some pet projects I just really cared about, um, that would’ve. And things more like, um, you know, training and development, learning and development, things like that. How to onboard employees that those weren’t needs that were being identified to me, but I felt passionate about the importance of, of culture, engagement, onboarding, employee experience.
So these are things I did on the weekend at night. You know, my day job would be hiring and putting out fires and my evening and weekends would be kind of putting the other components in place.
Michael Mitchel: So you’re there for the 16 years in HR function the whole time, correct?
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah, correct. Uh, well, the first year was accounting, the rest of it was hr.
I also gained responsibilities for office and facilities [00:09:00] management. Eventually with my MBA, when I got, um, put onto the, the executive team, um, I took on responsibilities for strategy, um, and contributed to mergers and acquisitions.
Michael Mitchel: So what were some of the challenges that you faced? I always call ’em headwinds.
Michelle Anastasi: Uh, challenges were many. A lot of them were, um, uh. You know, related to fast growth and extreme prioritization. You know, this was a reseller organization, which meant that we were living on a markup, and so we had to be very, very, very efficient. We did not have extra resources. Uh, you know, one of the things that we always kind of pointed to is we didn’t have post-it notes.
It was not something our company believed in. We were sending a message. By saying, you know, flip your used pieces of paper over and if they need to be little, cut them up. Right? Like, so we were incredibly scrappy and it was really sort of the poster child for a philosophy of being efficient. That was hard.
Um, we didn’t invest in things [00:10:00] like receptionist. Even when we got up to 900 employees, we never had a receptionist. So, um. I would say some of the hard things were, uh, trying to have influence for the things that I cared about and I felt were important. But, um, you know, it was the kind of place where you just did it on the side and, yeah, without, without any headcount.
Without any budget.
Michael Mitchel: So were you ever told, we don’t do it that way, we’ve never done it that way. Why are we, do you wanna do it this way?
Michelle Anastasi: Uh, no. Um, the company. Was agile and open and good ideas are what mattered. So I would say I was really lucky that I didn’t grow up in an environment where I had that type of resistance.
Um, everybody listened really carefully to each other and really respected, um, good ideas.
Michael Mitchel: Sometimes when, uh, a person moves into a role that start off, like say as an admin assistant or in account [00:11:00] accounting. Mm-hmm. And they move up.
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: More responsibilities. They become a middle manager, a VP or a C level.
But there’s still some people that view that person as the original role.
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: And did you encounter any of that? And if so, how did you deal with that?
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah, I mean, I’m aware of that and I just feel grateful I wasn’t in a place that, that. Did too much of that. I’ve seen it organizations where people have to literally leave their company, go do something else and maybe get rehired at the role they want.
Right, right. Because their company just could not see them at that next level. I felt like ASAP software was great about taking people where they were at that moment, and so. You know, knowing the first year I had there where I did not know how to use, uh, the copy machine at the time, right? I didn’t know anything.
Um, you know, luckily fast forward a few years, when I started putting in place the experience, the expertise, finding my voice, finding my influence, [00:12:00] I was taken as that leader and forgiven. Hopefully, you know, people, people didn’t hold long memories. They just kind of picked up where you’re at.
Michael Mitchel: So looking back, uh, during this time, is there anything you would’ve done differently?
Michelle Anastasi: Oh, gosh. Um, differently, probably a lot of different things. I mean, I made a ton of mistakes, but honestly I don’t think I would’ve done those things differently because those are learning opportunities. So, um. Probably, you know, I would consider myself, especially at that time in my career, a very heads down project management person.
Um, my favorite place to be would just be being productive, empowering out on something that needs to get done. If I could have shifted over into, um, better network building, better relationship building earlier, I think that that’s probably what I would’ve done. Differently.
Michael Mitchel: Great. What advice would you give to someone who may face a slim [00:13:00] situation as you did
Michelle Anastasi: in terms of growing from within the ranks
Michael Mitchel: or starting from scratch?
Michelle Anastasi: Oh, starting from scratch. Yeah. Um, that’s, that’s a great question. So make sure you’re really aligned with, um, the needs of the business. You know, listen really carefully, ask a lot of questions, stay curious. Um. You know, I think that’s really important that you’re working on work that matters to the business and continue to clarify wherever you need that clarity.
I think self-advocacy is incredibly important because people don’t know what they don’t know. You have to teach them what your needs are. So, um. You know, I think especially with new functions, right, you’ve gotta teach people the importance of it. Um, the why involved how it connects to the purpose, mission of the organization.
So keep communicating, keep self advocating, um, have a lot of tenacity. Uh, don’t give up on the things that you care about. You know, kind of move off and deli, you know, make sure you’re delivering what people want. [00:14:00] Um, work ethic. You know, I don’t think it’s often, I’m, I’m certainly not the, the smartest person in the company.
I love to hire people smarter than me, but I have found just sheer work ethic as a differentiator actually does get you further faster. So, um, work on what matters. You know, oftentimes people will say. Look for visibility, look for those critical roles that connect you with certain people or that, um, you know, give you visibility in the company.
I think that’s important, but I also think doing the right thing, doing the really most value add thing is what will help you, um, get further and developing other people. Just make sure that you have a legacy of investing and developing in people that then go on to do great things.
Michael Mitchel: I think the self advocacy is, is a fine line between.
Doing it correctly, you know, for the benefit of the organization and yourself, and getting the mission done versus the perception of coming on too strong and being looking [00:15:00] like you’re too much about yourself for self-interest. I think that’s a, that’s a fine line.
Michelle Anastasi: I think so too. Um, you know, if, if leaders can invest in becoming very self-aware, um, that’s a starting point to helping understand what other people’s priorities may be.
And then when you’re approaching, um, people with that common ground where your interests are aligned. Self-advocacy. You know, you’re not doing it for the point of self advocating. You’re self advocating on behalf of furthering something that you share in terms of, um, needs or interests or that moves the, the business forward.
I think it’s always important to make sure that that’s why you’re advocating for something that makes a lot of sense. And if it’s just for you, then, I mean, probably doesn’t make sense anyway. So,
Michael Mitchel: and going back to kinda the same question I asked, but, but the track being for someone who is moving up to the organization and trying to shake that perception that there’s still a blank.
Any [00:16:00] thoughts on that?
Michelle Anastasi: Um, probably can come down to behaviors. So making sure that the behavioral, um, competencies are evolving. Look for people that you respect and wanna emulate and make sure your behaviors are aligned with the cultural norms of the organization. So what that means at different levels is different things.
Um. You know, I would say investing in thinking about your executive presence and um, how you are going to gain influence and push things forward is important. You need followership, right positions. And position authority doesn’t make things happen. It doesn’t, you know, I, I have found that over and over again.
Like, Hey, I’m supposed to be in charge of this group. Why aren’t they doing what I want? Right. So, so again, like figuring out what’s at stake for everybody, making sure you’re, you’re working in that really collaborative way, um, and pushing big things forward. Would be one thing in demonstrating the strategic thinking.
So moving away from, you [00:17:00] know, individual achievement, individual projects and highlighting individual wins towards developing others, having greater impact, moving groups of people. And, um, you know, I think that’s how people start to see you differently in those roles.
Michael Mitchel: Act as if.
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah,
Michael Mitchel: because also I think it’s also for the person, it’s a mental to make sure that they don’t still act like I’m the receptionist or I’m the accountant, or I’m the blank who’s doing this now, but I still revert to my old role mentally.
Michelle Anastasi: Oh, absolutely.
Michael Mitchel: Because you wanna be treated the way you are, your role now. And to do that, you have to act that role.
Michelle Anastasi: You do, you do. Um, you know, you train people how to interact with you in personal, in professional lives. Right. We’re always. Setting that expectation and enabling, or not enabling that kind of behavior.
So in my, my example, you know, I legitimately started a role where I reported to somebody who reported to an executive [00:18:00] down the line. I was a peer to that executive who was my boss’s boss, right? And I considered my stakeholders every executive on that team. When I was in those entry level positions, and so I got into these patterns of delivering for them, working for them.
Um, and then when I have a seat at the table as an executive and their peer, you know, you’re, you’re, you end up saying no a lot more or questioning a lot more and you’re, you’re coming at it in a way that they have not been habituated to. So. There’s a lot of things you could do as an individual to earn that seat, but it also depends on the EQ of the other people around that table.
I mean, to their credit, um, they were phenomenal at. At doing that, and it’s because we all wanted the best thing for the organization. We truly, there was no hidden agendas, there was very little politics to that organization, and that’s the environment within which this [00:19:00] happened and that I could thrive in a different organization probably would not have worked out so well.
Michael Mitchel: Okay. You, you stayed at, um, ASAP for 16 years. You don’t see that very often anymore. Um, why, uh, would you do that again and why did you stay so long?
Michelle Anastasi: I stayed so long mainly because I grew and learned that was a top priority for me. And during that time, again, going from private to public, domestic to international, 50 to 900 individual contributor to manager to executive, right?
There was enough challenge, enough learning that my pace of learning could not have, have grown as fast anywhere else. We, you know, called it our, our in-house MBA, I mean, just the people there were dynamic and. Um, impressive. So having to stay at the top of my game for that long is what is what I thrived on.
Also, having impact, I was lucky to be in a role, um, where I could have impact on people, on [00:20:00] their families, and on the business. That was important to me. So that along with working with great people is the reason that I stayed. You know, would I do it again? I would, under those conditions, I absolutely would do it again.
Um, I think there’s a lot of value in owning something over time. Making decisions, making mistakes, learning, but owning the results, not being able to pop out of it. Um, but having to stick with it and stick with it in dynamic situations where, you know, the, the market and the customers and the strategies, uh, and the people are changing.
It’s so dynamic. That you’re having to adjust and shift and, and I think creating that ownership mentality is one of the things that also helped me be successful as an executive ultimately.
Michael Mitchel: So there’s been discussions when you look at the, the current, um, young, uh, emerging professionals with shorter dates.
And there’s some, there’s some, uh, philosophy. There’s a philosophy that [00:21:00] if the company’s not providing that, uh, that person with the challenges and, and engaging work or, or whatever they’re looking for, then they should leave. It’s up to the company to keep them engaged and retained. But, and then again.
They’re not giving the company the full benefit of the opportunity to grow. What are your thoughts on that?
Michelle Anastasi: I get it. I get that things have shifted. You know, I, I came of age and grew up in a, in a different time, and we do hear a lot more now about, um, people being, you know, more flexible in their career.
Certainly independent contractors gaining skill sets and experiences and, and trying to kind of get a bag of tricks you might not be able to. Um. See the opportunity to get that in one company. But it does happen over time, and it depends on if you value consistency. So for me it’s knowledge plus action over time.
That equals experience, right? It’s not one and done. I think you have to do things a couple times in different contexts before you can say you have [00:22:00] experience or maybe that 10,000 hour role of doing something before you’re really expert. So, um. But I wouldn’t say I have a different point of view on this, you know, in the last few years than ever before.
But I, so now I would not say that jumping around or job hopping is necessarily a bad thing. I just think it comes back to that self-awareness. What is important to you as a person, as a professional, knowing what you value and what you thrive in is the key. And if variety and change and. You know, the quick access to different skillset and moving on is important to you, then I would follow that path for me.
You know, it was more important to do it differently. Mm-hmm.
Michael Mitchel: So looking at your Dell days, what was that, uh, what was that merger like? What new experiences did it provide for you?
Michelle Anastasi: That was a wild ride. So we had been sold before Dell a couple of times. Um. We had first, you know, sold to a company called Corporate Express, so it was headquartered here in Broomfield, Colorado, actually.
And then [00:23:00] they were sold to Berman, which was a holding company out of the Netherlands. I did, um, live and work overseas for a time, um, out of Paris and was in between Amsterdam where Berman was and. In Paris. So there’s a lot of growth and a lot of change in this organization. We were also on the buying side of, of companies looking, looking at companies, and doing DI due diligence.
But Dell was at a different scale, right? So when Dell comes and it’s a public organization with a consumer facing brand. You know, I think people got kind of starstruck a little bit. We had Michael Dell visit our offices and meet the employees. There were a lot of photo opportunities. Uh, it was a wild ride.
People were excited at first. We knew that it would be a big change and unlike anything that we had gone through before. Um. For a minute, we asked if it was the right thing to do. We had several offers to buy us and the way the market was maturing and the consolidation of buyer behavior, wanting to buy all it, spend aggregated, we knew that we wouldn’t be able to be a software [00:24:00] only reseller for long.
So it was a strategic acquisition where they did hardware, we did software and services and licensing, and we could sort of, um, blend the teams. Um, if we had been sold to a competitor, we knew that we’d have employee layoffs right away. So for us, the decision was protect as many jobs. And, um, you know, get value out of this transaction.
All the, all the normal things. So at first there was a lot of excitement. Most people’s salaries went up because Dell was a public company. Most benefits increased, right? So, so these were some of the quick wins. We had some unusual benefits at ASAP, like seven year sabbaticals and five year trips. And those got grandfathered in for folks.
So we tried to honor some of those, but some of our benefits did ultimately go away. But we focused on the good things. We did, um, a lot of kind of culture match between the organizations and tried to help people make that transition. What was really complicated about it is that our sales forces overlapped each other in the field.
There was [00:25:00] confusion and go to market for sure, who owned what customers, who was gonna get paid out on what. Um, as we went, we had, you know, double people in accounts or. Different things going on in region. We had many, many, many systems to integrate. Um, so there’s a lot of complexity as well. We were only the second acquisition Dell had ever made, so they didn’t have any particular expertise in integration either.
So, um, you know, the ASAP folks and the Dell folks were appointed jointly onto these integration work streams and teams that, that ultimately got us there. So it was exciting. I would say it was exciting for about a year because we closed the deal in 2007. 2008 recession hit and all the layoffs that we tried to avoid
Michael Mitchel: happened
Michelle Anastasi: happened.
That was rough. Yeah, really rough. We ultimately went from about 900 employees down to about a hundred O. Yeah. The dismantling of an organization. I had spent more than a decade building essentially.
Michael Mitchel: That’s gotta hurt.
Michelle Anastasi: It was, it was rough.
Michael Mitchel: [00:26:00] What would you say is the difference between A CPL and A-C-H-R-O?
Michelle Anastasi: For me, I don’t see a difference. Um. You know, there’s, there’s a push away from, uh, using the word human resources potentially. Um, before that it was personnel, right? So I’m, I’m old enough to have seen a lot of progression in this field. I like the idea of calling it talent or people just calling it what it is.
It’s a simple way. Human resources does sound a little over-engineered and, um, numbers oriented or finance oriented. But honestly, I. It also doesn’t bother me to say CHRO or CPO, but I see the roles being the same.
Michael Mitchel: Got it. Okay. Yeah. What prepared you the most to become A-C-H-R-O or CPO? You’re A CPO?
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah.
Well, first I would say building that function up from scratch absolutely prepared me the most. I mean, doing that meant that I was constantly facing things I had never done before, which. Gave me, um, deep [00:27:00] expertise and confidence that I could continue to face new situations, that I would be able to rely on myself to figure things out, to surround myself with good people, to be resourceful.
So, you know, I would say there’s no shortcuts for gaining deep expertise, and that experience of building it from scratch helps me go with confidence knowing that, you know, I can probably add value or be in any discussion that any part of my teams today are having. So that would be number one. The second thing I would highlight is having a boss, a mentor.
That was really hard on me early on in my career. I wish that for everyone, I know it’s not what everybody wants, but again, the value there, um, is something that I could never overstate. Um, you know, having someone that pushed me beyond the comfort zone constantly, uh. You’ve definitely prepared me for the stresses that can come with this job [00:28:00] and, um, the, the kind of unprecedented nature of it.
Michael Mitchel: When I first started my business, uh, in early two thousands, I had a, a mentor and I, I’d, I’d go to ’em with a, with a question or an issue or a problem, and. Rather just gimme the answer. He would know. Make me figure it out. I’m like, just gimme the answer. Tell me what to do.
Michelle Anastasi: It’s so funny in the moment it is not what you want.
Right, exactly. And you’re like, this is not funny. Right. I do not want this. I’m miserable today. But when you look back, man, it is. Absolutely the best thing.
Michael Mitchel: Right?
Michelle Anastasi: And yeah,
Michael Mitchel: if you just gimme the answer, he would’ve been doing both of us a disservice. Exactly. Him from the experience and me from the learning opportunity.
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah. I also would say that, you know, this person, while he challenged and pushed me. Beyond my comfort zone constantly. Um, he also, I was very ambitious and naive, right? So I was always asking for more. I was always like, yeah, give that to me. Give that to me. He would let me stretch and pushed me, but not to the point where I’d fall flat on my face with big [00:29:00] consequences.
So sometimes he was holding me back in a frustrating way. And sometimes he was pushing me off the deep end in a uncomfortable way, but for some reason he had me figured out and was really savvy about that. So I’d say that, um, you know, that also I can’t, um, I can’t, you know, deny the impact my parents have had me on me in preparing for me for this role.
When I, when I think about it, I think it’s really interesting that my mother is a social worker. Huge heart understands people, um, values and respects people. My father is an engineer and his impressive mind is analytical. It’s um, it’s rational, it’s detail oriented, and to this day, he’s still the person with most integrity that I’ve ever met.
And on my best days, I like to think that I’m combine the strengths of both of them into this [00:30:00] role, which is a business role. Through a people lens and, um, you know, their, their values have shaped what’s important to me and, and what I seek out. And sometimes I think it was serendipity and sort of luck that I ended up as a CPO and other times I’m like, it was totally, you know, pre deter.
Of course I am given, given all these other things. It just makes so much sense to me sometimes.
Michael Mitchel: What are, uh, what do you feel are critical experiences and roles that an emerging needs HR professional needs to have today?
Michelle Anastasi: Um, there are, there are some critical roles that can definitely get you ahead. I think, um, especially the opportunity to develop relationships with key players or influencers, whatever those are in your organization.
I would say volunteer to get involved with anything that’s important to the company and those connections. Um, and the ability to work cross-functionally and to think cross-functionally are probably, um, some of the, the roles that can have a lot of impact. Um, but I would also say that I’m not [00:31:00] sure that there’s any one critical experience that can get you here.
I’ve seen people be really successful coming from a variety of different backgrounds, um, you know, from talent development or from. Uh, talent acquisition or from finance even. You know, I’ve seen, I’ve seen people get there and I think it has almost more to do with who you are than what you’ve done. Um, you know, I think marketing is a great background.
For example, for the, the CPO position, I think there’s so much overlap between, um, brand and brand execution and then talent brand and how we execute employee experience in an organization. So I say wherever you are. Um, just push yourself to think cross-functionally, think strategically, um, you know, grapple with hard choices.
That’s an everyday reality of this role. Understand what drives the business and, and kind of work it from, from that angle.
Michael Mitchel: So what advice would you give to a VP who wants to be A-C-H-R-O or CPO?
Michelle Anastasi: I would [00:32:00] say first congrats. You’re, you’re already almost there and you know. Continue to make the shift between individual achievement and team achievement to, to broader impact, um, especially in developing others.
Make sure that you are known as a talent developer and that people leave your organization for big roles inside or outside your own organization. Um. That, that I would say, you know, work on that and work on the soft skills. The, um, EQ sort of competencies about, um, you know, aligning and, and driving impact with influence.
Michael Mitchel: What aspects of being a CPO has surprised you? What do you find most rewarding?
Michelle Anastasi: There’s surprises every day, every single day. Uh, maybe one of the most surprising things is. How eager other CHROs and CPOs are to get together and form a [00:33:00] network. That’s, that’s really rewarding to me and has been a surprise.
It can be such a lonely position. It’s a position where you’re often not able to talk with anybody about what’s going on. Right. Um, inside the organization, certainly, and even outside, you know, you go home, you talk to your partner, your spouse, and it’s in very generic terms and there’s, there’s many things that are on non-disclosure that you know, you really can’t say at all.
So. When you can connect with other CPOs and have, you know, a drink potentially, and, and really connect, um, I’ve, I’ve found a surprising amount of community in, in this group. And I, I think Denver especially has been great for that. For me, um, most rewarding for me would be how dynamic the field is. It’s changing all the time.
It’s changed, you know, it’s kept me interested for more than 25 years. It changes quickly. It is thrilling for me. I have a true passion for, for it. Um, that’s been rewarding. I think I can continue to the rest of my life [00:34:00] by, by being really engaged in what’s next. You know, this is still emerging, is not figured out and people are messy and, and I love that.
Michael Mitchel: Having lived overseas, how does that experience influence your approach to hr? Or does it?
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah, it does for sure. I think, um, you know, being culturally aware and, you know, again, being outside your comfort zone and, and, uh, you know, that’s an experience that so many of our employees have all the time. You know, whether they’re joining the organization, everybody has a different life story.
Everybody’s coming from a different experience with different expectations and different gifts, and I’ve been that person. That has been disoriented in a different culture, you know, going, what’s going on? I can’t figure this out. Whether it’s language or, um, you know, geography or, uh, just cultural norms, meeting norms.
I’ve been outta my elements. I have developed [00:35:00] empathy, um, you know, genuine, genuine empathy for everyone else. And so. I think, I think it’s helped me look beyond the surface and try to want to get to know people. I’m just really interested in people’s stories as well, and, um. Besides that, I think it also led me to a fascination that’s had me travel to many other countries.
Like now I’m, I have an appetite for it. I married a man that’s from Portugal and you know, half my family is in Europe and, you know, we continue to travel, we speak to languages in my home. So I think it all kind of started from that overseas experience. Cool.
Michael Mitchel: I think it’s safe to say that we’ve all made a back call at least once in our, in our career in, in picking a company to go to.
What was yours and what did you learn from it? And you don’t have to mention the company name obviously, but
Michelle Anastasi: Sure, absolutely. So again, like life lessons and developing empathy through mistakes. I’ve, I’ve had quite a few. The, the one that I think [00:36:00] probably shaped me the most is I joined a company that was led by a narcissist and.
That experience was very, uh, disorienting for me. It temporarily just threw me off balance before I could truly figure out who it was that I was working with. And you have to imagine, right in my role, I’m supposed to be good at assessing culture and leadership, but this was an epic fail on my part. I did not figure this out through the hiring process.
And it took me a while to figure it out, even when I was there. I had never experienced it before, personally or professionally. Um, so I didn’t, I didn’t see it coming. Um, you know, I learned, I learned a lot. Um, I would say most importantly, I was able to get myself out of there in a reasonable amount of time, and it was incredibly validating.
Um, for me about my worldview, about, about my values, about the way I wanted to approach work and the choices that I had and the fact that I was willing to, [00:37:00] you know, kind of lose part, you know, this step in my career over doubling down with the things that are truly important to me as a human being. That felt great and, um.
But it, it was also, you know, humbling. How did I get it so wrong?
Michael Mitchel: Okay. That’s good. Yeah. Um, how has your MBA impacted or influenced your career in hr?
Michelle Anastasi: First of all, just, uh, the MBA was, was helpful. Um, in understanding the complexity of business, I am able to contribute, um, on the executive team cross-functionally.
I communicate in a way that is relevant with other leaders, and I focus on what matters to the business. I think those are things that were honed, um, through my MBA experience. I often get the question, is it necessary to have an MBA? And I say it depends on the company. And the company I was with, I noticed I was the only executive that didn’t have one.
So of course I was bent on getting it because I didn’t wanna have a credential that, you know, was missing. So. [00:38:00] I put in, in place that piece, but also HR experience, like the certifications, the other things that, that made me feel like I could own my function as well. There are companies that don’t care at all about an MBA and in those cases, um, I would say do it only if you actually wanna develop that broad business mindset.
I think it’s helpful at this level. Um, I think it’s probably. Even more helpful at a public organization than a private one, potentially. Or startup. Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: When you’re, um, when you’re hiring HR leaders, what do you look for in successful candidates?
Michelle Anastasi: Um, I look for a passion for their field, whatever aspect that they’re doing, a really genuine passion, um, and look for the reasons why they’re doing it.
I look for, you know, that high EQ and self-awareness. Effective communication styles, whatever we do, we’re communicating and connecting with people, [00:39:00] so I think that’s really important. Um, for leaders that track record of developing people is important to me. I’m often looking for complimentary skillset, so I’m building, you know, pieces in a way, like a coach would build a team and I don’t want somebody that’s just like me or just like other people I already have on the team.
So I’m putting that together. But I also look for someone where that passion drives their work ethic and that they are ambitious. They want to achieve great things. You know, I feel like what we’re working on is really important, has impact in the world, and. I enjoy working with people who see it that way as well.
This is not a job. This is, you know, really a mission that they’re bought into.
Michael Mitchel: Cool. So as we start to button this up, um, there’s, there’s one of my favorite questions to ask is, what’s the best, worst job you’ve ever had and what influence did it have on your, on you throughout your career?
Michelle Anastasi: Best, worst job.
Oh man. Can I say waitressing?
Michael Mitchel: You can say
Michelle Anastasi: whatever you want. I mean, waitressing is such a good [00:40:00] background for everything in life. I drop on my experience waitressing all the time. It’s um, something I just have so much respect for and hopefully treat every server out there really well. It is the hardest job I’ve ever done.
Um, physically and in terms of multitasking and the people savvy and the giness and the having to memorize the specials, it was hard for me. So I would say that’s the best, worst job. Lots of fun. Really hard. I hope to never do it again, but it was, it was fun.
Michael Mitchel: I’ve never been in that kind of a role, but it looks like the worst job for me.
’cause I am not, um, should we say a detailed person? Yeah. And remember, I, I don’t know how people. Remember the orders and who gets what, and it’s easy to get irritated with them, but they’re working how many other tables and this and that, and I’ve just, it’s exhausting just to watch ’em. It really is. I mean, when they’re
Michelle Anastasi: at the [00:41:00] best, you don’t kind of notice them.
You’ll only notice the things that go wrong. What I will tell you the, the best thing I learned waitressing was. When I first started waitressing, you’ve got, you know, a section, you’ve got tables and they’re all at different stages, and you end up running back and forth for everything. Somebody wants a drink, you get them a drink, somebody needs lemon for the drink.
Okay? You get that. Another person needs a appetizer or dessert or whatever. What you learn pretty quickly is that when you go to the floor, you hit every table and pick up the needs. Then you go back to the kitchen and you get everything you need. So batching for efficiency, and then you go out and you deliver everything and you pick up the next round of needs and then you go back.
But when you’re running for a table and an individual thing, you can never, ever pull it off. It’s just completely overwhelming. And yeah.
Michael Mitchel: But the other thing is, is for me, my mission is help spread the word. When you travel or you’re in a hotel, leave a tip for the cleaning staff. Yes. I don’t know why this demographic got left out on the tip system, but think [00:42:00] about it.
They’re cleaning up your mess.
Michelle Anastasi: I know why. You know why? It’s because you don’t see them face to face. Right? And you’re not confronted with that moment. Of doing the right thing, but that is the right thing to do. I agree with you. I’m
Michael Mitchel: the one who kind of puts all the dirty laundry in a pile in the room before I leave.
Michelle Anastasi: Aw,
Michael Mitchel: yeah, I do. Yeah, of course. I’m the one at home who makes the bed, so, you know, there we you’re a good traveler. Yeah. Yeah. Um, any books to recommend?
Michelle Anastasi: Uh, absolutely. Um. Let’s see. I like Seth Godin’s books a lot. So, um, linchpin is something that I go back to over and over again. It’s about how to make yourself indispensable.
How to become indispensable. That’s the secret to everything in startup for sure. And probably everything everywhere. So that one, he also wrote tribes, which is really interesting in terms of leadership books. Um, also like Turn the Ship around. I don’t know if you’ve seen that. It’s like an ex Navy person actually wrote the book.
It’s really fascinating. Um, it’s l David Marquette. [00:43:00] Um, and it’s a really interesting real life story about leadership taking over, um, a kind of messy situation and making it incrementally better person by person and issue by issue. I like that one. Um. Start with why. I hope every listener has at least watched the TED Talk or something from Simon Sinek.
When connecting with purpose and finding fulfillment, which is the connective tissue that I think all human beings want, I don’t think it gets better than starting with why. And for startup cultures, I would say, you know, the hard thing about hard things, Ben Horowitz, is one that a lot of people, myself included, come back to time and time again about just, it’s not the things you think are gonna be hard, it’s the kind of surprising messiness.
Michael Mitchel: Great. That is good stuff. Mm-hmm. Any, uh, final thoughts for e CXOs?
Michelle Anastasi: Uh, final thoughts? Maybe just to reiterate things I’ve already said, which are, you know, figure [00:44:00] out who you respect and admire, emulate them. Um, focus on consistency over time. Don’t go for short wins. There are no shortcuts. Put in the time.
Focus on real value. Be other oriented. Really think about others developing others. Um. It all comes back around in my career. It has for sure.
Michael Mitchel: Uh, if someone wants to get in touch with you, what’s the best way?
Michelle Anastasi: Uh, LinkedIn would be best and I, I actually dunno how to find myself on, I think it’s just Michelle with two Ls Anastasi, which is A-N-A-S-T-A-S-I.
Michael Mitchel: And put it at a search bar and they’ll find you.
Michelle Anastasi: Yep.
Michael Mitchel: Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences today. It’s been a very engaging conversation and we really appreciate your time.
Michelle Anastasi: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks so much.
Michael Mitchel: Thanks. Cheers. Cheers. I’m not gonna tell you what you should take away from this interview.
For each person is unique in their passions, career goals, and experiences, I do hope you learn something and [00:45:00] enjoy the conversation. Please give us five stars, iTunes, and share your comments. That’s the only way we can improve and ask the questions that you want to hear. I’d like to thank Jolan Crossland, an award-winning banjo and bluegrass artist.
Jalan HA is from the Bighorn Mountain to Wyoming, and he graciously provided his music for exploring talent. When I think of talent, Jalan always comes to mind First, please visit jalan crossland.com. I’d like to thank Angie for all of her research during her 16 plus years at my firm, OC Executive Search, and for her work on this podcast.
I always give credit where credit is due. Exploring talent’s name came from Angie. Thanks for my pod producer, Joseph, or without this podcast would not be possible. And of course, Corey, my pod engineer. Please follow us on LinkedIn under Exploring Talent. My LinkedIn is Michael Mitchell with one L and our Twitter handle is talent explored.
Share our show and please drop me a note. Thanks for [00:46:00] joining.
