Mentorship and direct feedback can make or break a career. Sean Odendahl, Chief Transformation Officer, joins CXO Conversations to discuss how candid conversations, military discipline, and legal expertise shaped his leadership style. A must-listen for executives and future leaders.
For the full interview: https://ocns.co/sean-odendahl-partner-and-chief-transformation-officer/
10 Min Clip Transcript
Sean Odendahl: [00:00:00] So I know when I’ve been on the receiving end of, of direct feedback, I’ve been grateful. Um, I’ve had, you know, my own mentors or even clients say, Hey, you guys are doing this really well, you know, here’s something I’d like to see more. It has never bothered me to receive that, and I’m always grateful for that feedback.
Michael Mitchel: Well kick it.
CXO conversations, talks with C-level executives on how they reach the C-suite and what advice would they give those who want to be one. Hi, I am your host, Michael Mitchell, managing director of OC National Search. First off, I’d like to thank CXO conversation, sponsor A CG Denver for their support of this podcast.
As a board member, I’m proud of Association for Corporate Growth for its quality networking education [00:01:00] and events. Joining us today is Sean Denal, someone who has worked for four employers, the US Army. Clark in the in the Ninth Circuit and as an attorney for two firms today, Sean is a partner and chief transformation officer with Brian Cave.
Layton Ner, a global law firm. He joined 17 years ago. Please see the show notes for more information on Sean. I’m looking forward to talking with Sean about the value of direct feedback in candid mentor relationships. And executive leadership traits. Welcome to the conversation, Sean. Thanks, Michael.
Delighted to be here. What are the responsibilities of a Chief Transformation Officer at a global law firm? I’m gonna see how many times I can say global law firm in the spot.
Sean Odendahl: That’s, that’s right. Uh, it’s almost like paid to sponsorship. The, um, so it, it’s a good question because, you know, stepping into the role, we had never had a Chief Transformation officer or CTO.
In fact, most of the emails I got were like, Hey, can I get my computer replaced? And I’d be like, no, I’m not that CTO wrong. T. Or That’s, that’s right. But fundamentally, it’s to, um, be an [00:02:00] agent of change and to make sure the whole firm’s perspective. Is brought in on decisions that are made around how we’re driving forward our strategy, and really are we stretching beyond, um, I think beyond merely taking an action to, to further a simple business goal in front of us versus really changing the way we might do business.
That piece of the strategy in particular, making sure that’s the perspective that comes in.
Michael Mitchel: So, so prior to this role, yeah. You’re a partner. Yep. So you’re doing what partners do, right? Mm-hmm. Client relationship development, billable hours, lots of hours. And then how did this come about? How didd this opportunity present itself to you?
So our
Sean Odendahl: firm, um, so my legacy firm was Brian Cave and it went through a merger and oh, about 2018 with Barwin Leighton Paisner. So it, um, when you look at those firms and the situations that are coming from, it’s part of regular consolidation, you see across many industries. It’s the pressure to get bigger and better, or get smaller [00:03:00] and more niche.
And we went the bigger and better. And so we merged with another firm and as part of that, we said, okay, we have a lot of cultural points in common. That’s the key. That’s foundational. How do we really get the benefits of this merger? We hired an outside consultant to help us come in and start to put together a plan of transformation.
In very simple terms, it’s really how do you complete this merger and get the benefit of what you’re intended to do by doing the merger in the first place, reaching and servicing more clients, providing them better service, uh, bringing the best of what you can to them. So we then, uh, with that nudge from our consultant, changed our leadership team entirely, and I was invited to come in as our first chief transformation officer said, would you do this?
I said, yes. What is it? Well, we don’t know exactly, but we have this consultant that told us we really need somebody like you. So make it your own. That’s right there. There is definitely an aspect of that. But, you know, fundamentally, my background, so I’m a, I focus on mergers and [00:04:00] acquisitions largely for private companies, some public, lots of private equity backed companies.
So I’m used to working with a lot of people. How do we bring the best of those subject matter experts to achieve a client’s goals? The thought was that that in part would be helpful in bringing pieces of the firm together. In achieving our goals. And then I have a military background which they like, they assumed I would have a thick enough skin that I could, you know, press forward on what was important.
Michael Mitchel: Yes, sir. May I have another?
Sean Odendahl: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Michael Mitchel: So, so you go from, uh, being the attorney for a, uh, an organization going through an m and a. Mm-hmm. So you see it from that lens. Mm-hmm. And now you’re in that chair yourself. Oh, yeah. So, no, you’re, you’re managing the m and a process. Post m and a.
Sean Odendahl: That’s right.
Quite literally the integration process as well as where we go and acquire other practice groups and firms. And, you know, I think the, you know, there’s a, an adage which is true until you are actually sitting in that seat, you can’t fully appreciate it. So part of the goal of a chief [00:05:00] transformation officer is also to fundamentally work themselves out of a job.
Right. And so if I think about that and. Returning more of my attention to full-time practice. It does allow me to bring a perspective or more fulsome perspective of what a merger is really like and really the deep, hard, mucky work of actually making it work.
Michael Mitchel: So meanwhile, you’re still a, a partner of the firm.
That’s right. So you still have partner responsibilities. That’s right. And all that is entailed. Did you get any. Leeway on that aspect, or did that maintain the same level of expectations?
Sean Odendahl: Um, I would say, um, the broadest expectations, uh, were the same. But I come from a firm with, with a, has a very strong support structure internally, and part of that includes and a partner’s responsibilities in is to nurturing the next generation of talent.
So I had a, I was surrounded by a wonderful set of more junior partners who were already working for those clients, able to step in and continue to make sure the client needs are met. Um, from the firm’s perspective, it’s important that, you know, I still had a [00:06:00] role with client relationships and do that, but it was, it was a very supportive launch point, I would say.
Michael Mitchel: So what surprised you about this role as the chief transformation officer?
Sean Odendahl: You, you always hear how hard change is, and it really is, and the, despite the fact that people can see something and say, oh, objectively, I would like to get to that destination point. Nobody, including myself, is, is really prepared for the journey.
And sometimes how hard that journey is. You might think you are, but until you’re on it, you’re not really prepared. And as a lot of the benefit is in the rear view mirror. Mm-hmm. Seeing the things that you’ve accomplished. So I, I thought I could be that agent of change and, you know, that voice crying out in the wilderness and now I was just as resistant to change as everybody else.
Michael Mitchel: When you look at, at, at your time in this role, what’s your legacy? What are you most proud of?
Sean Odendahl: Uh, one of the things I’m most proud of is getting a set of clear expectations, um, for every member of our firm. And that [00:07:00] was, it was actually the better part of a three year process, uh, to do that and a lot of consultation and really kind of peeling back how do we maintain the best parts of our culture while making sure we’re, continue to be focused on achieving a high performance organization.
And that was much harder than I expected, and therefore, in doing that, much more rewarding than I would’ve expected. Okay.
Michael Mitchel: What, um, was there anything specific that you drew on, um, in prior experience for this?
Sean Odendahl: Yes. I mean, I think in, um, in looking back there is something I learned through my first two major duty stations in the military.
And it was the first duty station I had. Uh, without calling out the specific units, I didn’t know any better. Things didn’t always seem to function particularly well. There were certain stress points in the command and leadership structure, but I thought, Hey, that’s just kind of what it is. My next duty station was with a rapid reaction force.
It had the finest officers and [00:08:00] NCOs, uh, in the army. I was in the army, uh, it was a paratrooper unit. And when I got there, I finally said, ah, okay, now I know what good looks like. And what that changed in me was it allowed me to have. A perspective that says I might be experiencing something there where there could be something better, or maybe this is the best and allow me to ask the question, okay, do I know what good looks like?
Mm-hmm. W how can I go out and confirm or validate that so I know whether I’m on the right path or not. So, um, that experience of, um, opening my perspective and then, um, uh, simply asking that self-reflective question. And I think the, the military brought that in ways I wouldn’t have expected and only kinda realized now in some sense.
Michael Mitchel: Well, one last question on the CTO role, ’cause we are gonna get to your service days. Um, was there a specific lesson you learned? And I know you’re still a CTL. Mm-hmm. But when you look back mm-hmm. ’cause you’ve been doing this for how long?
Sean Odendahl: Uh, about three and a half years. Okay.
Michael Mitchel: So was there a, a, a lesson learned, a specific lesson learned from a MoMA and a [00:09:00] project, you know, something you’re like, okay, something new because we’re always learning.
Sean Odendahl: That’s right. Uh, you know, what comes to mind is we have had, and still have very ambitious goals. And that’s fine. I think there is a point when you need to ask, okay, what is the art of the possible? And it’s not to dilute. The stretch you need to do or to identify, perhaps you have a gap you need to fill to do something.
Um, but there’s, there’s a risk in this role of saying, listen, I’m holding everybody else accountable for or for achieving this objective. But part of my role is also to wanna really identify realistically what is possible so that we are, I’m holding people accountable to achieving the next step that’s within reach and giving us the right amount of push.
Mm-hmm. So I need to make sure I’m rooted in a reality in, in my approach as well.
Michael Mitchel: So, uh, what attracted you to the Army?
Sean Odendahl: Um, you know, I think it was, uh, probably a knee jerk reaction to fairly liberal parents and probably an unrealized sense. I just wasn’t [00:10:00] ready for college yet. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, also, so I’m a child of the, the seventies and early eighties, so there’s plenty of Rambo movies and that sort of thing that also probably fed into a.
Young Midwestern kids that desire to one bolt from their Midwestern town and two, you know, go see the world through the, the only lens I knew, which was what was coming at me, you know, from the, you know, local movie theater.
Michael Mitchel: I, I grew up on John Wayne movies. Yep. That’s what it did for me. Same. Exactly. In fact, I, um.
Uh, I always wanted to get into a John Wayne Bar fight. Unfortunately, I decided to do that in Bangkok at a tight boxing bar.
Sean Odendahl: That’s, that’s, that’s right. Lesson learned. Exactly. Maybe lesson number 100. Yeah. That’s a
Michael Mitchel: lesson learned. What were some key takeaways that served that’s from your army days that served you in your career?
You’ve hit it on a little bit, but I’m sure there’s a lot more
Sean Odendahl: on that. Yeah, I think there was, um. You know, I was thinking a little bit about this. There’s, um, patience and questioning and questioning is the funny one that that comes to mind because the, when you think about the military, and often there’s not, uh, call it an encouragement [00:11:00] to question what the command is, but it’s a recognition that good commanders can see, when might they invite questions to better enable their troops to buy into whatever they’re doing and go achieve the objective.
So it, it gave me insight into what good leadership looks like. Um, in ways that going into the Army, I wouldn’t have expected that, per se. Um, it gave me a deeper runner, it gave me deeper patience, and I’m naturally a fairly impatient person. Um, and I think it gave me a, an appreciation for within teams, we all have a role.
And any one person not doing their job creates a weakness across the team. But what is also important, we often will, we will shift and grow through different roles. And you know, I think a, a well high functioning team has pulled together people who have a, who have had those experience in different roles.
’cause they can better understand the value somebody else is contributing and fundamentally. We all wanna be valued for our contributions. Right. So it, it brought that perspective to [00:12:00] me.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah. That’s one thing that I remember from my, from my days is, you know, like I, I was in a squadron. Yep. Right. An aviation, a navy squadron, and people come and go, but it’s still VFA 1 92.
That’s right. And it’s that culture and that’s, that sense of, of comradery always existed. But, you know, it, it, it goes back to that teamwork and instilling that leadership. You leave, it keeps on going. That’s right. And I don’t think that happens enough in corporate America, especially from a fundraising perspective.
Oh man, I lost my, my point of contact. We’re not gonna get that five grand this year. That’s right. You know, that kind of thing. It, it’s an interesting and never cease to amaze me how much the relationship, a one-on-one between different organizations, so much matters. Mm-hmm.
Sean Odendahl: I think so. I mean, I think there’s the.
One of the things as, as you were talking that that came to mind also is the, I think well run organizations. Um, they build in the capacity for succession.
Michael Mitchel: Mm-hmm.
Sean Odendahl: There is [00:13:00] a recognition that while some people are important and their roles are important, this ship’s gotta continue to float. Yep. You know, we gotta get the planes up in the air, even if this person is no longer with us.
And it’s, you know, being, I think there’s something very motivating about having purpose tied to something bigger than than yourself. And, um, I have seen less of that in corporate America than I did. Yeah, within the military for sure,
Michael Mitchel: but also someone with the relationship that, you know, I, I depend on that relationship for Yes, my cause and my interest.
It’s important to, and they’re cliches for a reason to go deep and wide.
Sean Odendahl: Yes, that’s right. Yeah. You, you, you, you have to create some redundancy. But I, the funny thing about the relationships as you, as you talk about them, and that is one thing I have really appreciated in my role as a lawyer in the encouragement around this, is the.
Part of the kick for being a lawyer is getting to know the client and helping them achieve their objectives and, and having those broader relationships. One, I can bring more to bear for them, but that’s the part I really enjoy. Mm-hmm. And that is part [00:14:00] of, you know, there was parts of that, certainly in the military, as you’re, you know, you’re, you’re relying on, you gotta have the whole supply chain, you know, working together.
But then it’s also, you know, the, the person in the proverbial foxhole, you know, next to you can be equally important. And, you know, getting to know them. That’s kind of the interesting part. It’s the people, even in the military, it’s the people.
Michael Mitchel: What, what are your thoughts on, and I think we talked about this before, the mentorship aspect and feedback.
Mm-hmm. Right? What was your takeaway on, on that aspect of your military service and, and your post post-service career?
Sean Odendahl: So, uh, it’s one of the other part things I’ve done as our chief transformation officers, we’ve implemented a new feedback. Um, system
Michael Mitchel: and no, a no feedback system. New feedback system. Oh, new feedback.
Okay. I wanna share that, right?
Sean Odendahl: Yeah, that, that’s right. Yeah. In some cases where there’s no feedback, we definitely need to make sure there’s new and existing feedback. Well,
Michael Mitchel: if there’s no feedback, that might be the feedback. That’s right.
Sean Odendahl: Um, you know, the, uh, the military has very good structure. Around [00:15:00] feedback and has generally very clear expectations.
Mm-hmm. Which, which definitely helped that. I think that comparing that to corporate America, I have personally found where I was able to drive and solicit my own feedback is where I got the better feedback. But that came down to my w wiring. I’ve, I’ve found it notwithstanding that I could see the benefit of feedback, I think as a partner with the obligation to mentor.
You know, more junior partners and associates, it can still be hard to find and create time to do that. You know, objectively it’s important, but it’s very easy to put out the fire in front of you. And that where I step back intentionally and spend the time I get, I get 10 times the reward. They probably do from helping grow somebody.
I, I always learn something. I’m learning as much as they are in those, uh, feedback sessions. But, and it’s hard to do and I think, you know, the, the structure is great having forms. Can be great, but it’s the [00:16:00] conversation that matters. And I would say successful feedback, relationships, whether they’re in the corporate world or looking back in the military, it was largely that connection.
Those conversations, the forms are almost an HR task. You know, check the box, get ’em done or not. It’s having those real relationships and building those, um, uh, uh, links of trust.
Michael Mitchel: So let’s talk about that direct feedback. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, that, that’s not. Easy to do. Mm-hmm. Either to give or obviously to receive.
Yep. So what are your thoughts on, on that aspect? I mean, we’re gonna go into mentorship in a second, but what are your thoughts on how do you deliver it and the, and the importance of receiving very direct candid feedback, even if it makes you awkward and uncomfortable?
Sean Odendahl: So I know when I’ve been on the receiving end of, of direct feedback.
I’ve been grateful. Um, I’ve had, you know, my own mentors or even clients say, Hey, you guys are doing this really well, you know, here’s something I’d like to see more. It has never bothered me to [00:17:00] receive that, and I’m always grateful for that feedback. And in candidly, the trust that, you know, whoever’s giving me the feedback has that I’ll, I’ll take it in stride and in the right way.
Not withstanding that it’s really hard to do that with somebody else. I find. So what I do, and then the military also taught me this is. Uh, there’s the rule of the six Ps. I’ll use five of ’em, that the prior planning, you know, prevents poor performance. There’s a, another P in there sometimes used, but at any rate, it’s thinking through it ahead of time, you know, and making sure that I’m approaching feedback.
I know that my objective is to. Make the other person better at what they do. It’s not to exercise a frustration I have and to think through how might they receive this, but I have found that after I go through that, where I’m just very direct and upfront with the, Hey, I want you to be more successful, and then I ask, may I give you some feedback?
When they say yes, they’re, they’re bought into it.
Michael Mitchel: You ask,
Sean Odendahl: I ask the question, may I give you some feedback? Sometimes I [00:18:00] may even ask. I have some, you know, part of what I have is some challenging feedback. May I give that to you? And I think the conversations go better, um, to just get that right out in the front.
’cause otherwise, sometimes they know something tough is coming too. And if you’re kind of beating around the bush too long, right? One, they’re just sitting there anxious the whole time. I may be anxious. Boy, once we get it out, then rip the bandaid off. We can have a productive conversation. Have you ever?
But the key thing was, my mindset was to help them first. And I have to be honest to that.
Michael Mitchel: Have you ever had someone say, no,
Sean Odendahl: I can’t recall any time when I have, I may maybe, maybe my, you know, within a family situation, someone may have said, maybe I, you know, your feedback’s not necessary here. Just give me your ear, you know?
Right. Uh, but yes, I can’t think of any professional situation where someone has said, no. I think we all crave. The feedback candidly, and it’s given too infrequently. Fair enough.
Michael Mitchel: Um, I, I think
Sean Odendahl: that,
Michael Mitchel: have you had somebody
Sean Odendahl: say
Michael Mitchel: no? Huh?
Sean Odendahl: Have you had somebody say no.
Michael Mitchel: Um, [00:19:00] not at the beginning, but the end. They may tell me, you know, I, I think that third P comes into That’s right.
And six P comes into place. Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So, um, but I, I think that when you, when you ask first, you’re putting the, the conversation on how much, much different context. Yeah. It’s more, rather than, I think hierarchical, it’s more level playing. Yeah. Right. I’m talking to you one-on-one. I think that’s right.
Yeah. And, and so it tees that up for, okay. You know, they’re, they’re pulling me into the conversation rather than pushing, you know, comments to me.
Sean Odendahl: That’s right. I think for, for, um, some of those critical conversations I’ve seen, I have observed more often in good leaders where they could give the command, but they will ask the question and get better results, and then more often in people.
Who aren’t in the position of command, but really wish they could just shout the order. Yeah. And it causes me to step back and think, oh, well, okay, well I’ve seen firsthand what is the more, you know, effective way of leading somebody and growing whatever you have, the organization, the [00:20:00] outcome, et cetera.
Michael Mitchel: You know? And words matter. Yeah. Because I can think of conversations I’ve had where I may have teed up with, you know, I’m violating rule number one, I’m offering advice. Yep. Without being asked, which, yep. We all know better than that. Mm-hmm. But, but I think really what, you know, I don’t always do it that way, but there’s a couple times that come my mind and instead say, can I give you candid feedback?
Yep. Do you mind if I give you this candid feedback? Yep. Right. It’s like, you know, when you ask a question, what led you to become the CTO mm-hmm. Versus why are you the CTO? Which is a very defensive question. Sure. Right. Yeah. But that sets up the conversation, those, those two ways much differently.
Sean Odendahl: It does.
I find that, um. I, I use it pretty well in my professional life. I probably should use it more often in my home life. I think I have these wonderful, you know, high school aged kids that are gonna be going off these big developing minds, sucking in everything. And, you know, um, I probably should use a little less command and control [00:21:00] and a little bit more of supportive, you know, mentorship.
Michael Mitchel: I did, uh, last year I got Hogan assessment certified. And I went to New York for a couple days for that. Mm-hmm. And then I did a follow up, uh, training on, uh, basically listening and consulting. And then I found out I was using that with some of my conversations at home. And I got checked on it pretty quickly.
My wife was like, don’t even bring that here. Don’t even try that on me. Yes,
Sean Odendahl: that’s right.
Michael Mitchel: She’s a PhD, so she really is a brainy outfit.
Sean Odendahl: Well, mine were always, there’s uh, five or six questions. When I first took this job, they said, listen, if you don’t know anything, that’s fine. You just need to ask these questions.
You know, what’s the problem? What needs to be done? Who’s gonna do it, when is it gonna be done? These questions, those are the ones when I try to use ’em at home, they kind of hit a pause button and say, Nope, dad not flying here. Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: Leave that in the office. Yeah. I, I wanna, we hit on, I wanna expand on mentorship.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, as a mentee, what are the key benefits?
Sean Odendahl: I think as a mentee, some of the key benefits are, and if you open your own [00:22:00] perspective for this, that there is a, someone honestly trying and appropriately trying to help you grow. You are a bit of the focus and maybe in the context of helping the organization achieve its objectives, but, you know, enjoy that.
Mm-hmm. This is, this is, you know, help for you and when the relationship is, is set up well. I think it’s also an opportunity to learn how to mentor. And I think, you know, uh, what many mentees probably don’t realize is that often the mentor, at least in my experience, is learning as much as the mentee. Yeah.
At that time. So it really is a valuable two-way piece. So the mentor values that relationship to you as the mentee are rendering a value to somebody else. Who happens to hold your interests dear? How as a mentor do you grow? Or what are, what are your rewards? The ones that immediately come to mind are seeing the people I’ve mentored be successful, you know, and growing past what, you know, I could achieve certainly at their, their same [00:23:00] stage.
I mean. We all, I mean, rightly think that, you know, gosh, you know, every generation’s a little bit smarter and more well qualified than I am, and thank God I’m not out in the job market now. But I think the biggest one is watching them grow and, uh, be successful. I think that, you know, I’ve certainly learned from those times when mentoring did not go well where I was the mentor and being able to bring that in and, uh, bringing in a, within the mentor mentee relationship, sometimes a conversational structure.
But allow them to go out and kind of, I think the most important thing is asking questions. So how might they ask questions and develop client relationships. Mm-hmm. Because fundamentally it’s just is this trust-based relationship, you know? And then sometimes intentionally open their eyes to that tool during our conversation, Hey, this is a tool you can use and what you’re doing, all we’re doing is having a conversation.
Michael Mitchel: So, so those moments, um, a misfire as a mentor.
Sean Odendahl: Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: I’m not saying you did specifically you. Mm-hmm. But what does that look like and how can people avoid those pitfalls? [00:24:00]
Sean Odendahl: I think, um, some things it looks like is, um, discovering after the fact that you were a day late and a dollar short on your mentoring.
What I think that enables then as a little bit, uh, more informed view of when you may be approaching that, and certainly as a mentor, where I have failed at times as if. I should have seen something coming, and maybe I did and I’m not being honest with myself, and I could have intervened to help make somebody more successful.
Instead, they had a challenge that they need to have faced alone. So it makes me more alive to that for my next mentee or relationship, and that’s a lesson, you know, I have to learn and take away at the same time. Eventually forgiving myself for that too, uh, so that I can actually, uh, help the next person.
But I think it’s the, um, it’s important to see failure and to see challenges and to have that perspective to not only have experienced them, but to be able to see [00:25:00] some of that coming, to help somebody be better equipped to face ’em. And then sometimes you want someone to face that challenge ultimately as part of the growth,
Michael Mitchel: but, but also as a, um, when you’re a mentor mm-hmm.
And you’re helping others rise up, right. The people above you. Are gonna notice that. Mm-hmm. I mean, you’re not doing it for that reason. Right. Which even I think a test is a testimony to why that person’s even a greater leader. Mm-hmm. Right. And so when others around you see that they’re okay, Sean, you know, Sean’s a true leader, and That’s right.
We need him in leadership within your organization, for example. That’s right. And that’s, you become a Chief transformation officer.
Sean Odendahl: That’s right. I, I think that’s right. It’s, it is one of our cultural foundations of our firm, uh, that mentor. We ex we expect it of everybody. And I think, you know, I know, I notice when I see other good mentors Yeah.
And I mention that to other people, it’s, it’s great to see in the organization. ’cause it gives, at least for me, it gives me a sense of the health and continuity of the organization.
Michael Mitchel: Is there any other thoughts you’d have [00:26:00] you’d like to share about, about mentorship?
Sean Odendahl: Um, only that, um, I have the luxury of two wonderful kids at home.
There’s mentorship there. I have professional opportunities, uh, to mentor. I do think it’s important ’cause it rounds us out as individuals to find opportunities within community. Mm-hmm. To mentor. I, I happen to do it. Our whole family’s involved in a certain, you know, uh, we got involved in a martial arts organization ’cause we’re all sitting at home getting fat and figured we let’s do something active together.
So within the context of that organization. We teach and, and mentor other people have traveled overseas with that organization. So, you know, looking for, you know, I think it rounds us out as people to get outside of our own home and our own jobs and into our community and we bring so much more back. Uh, but the most important thing is, you know.
Most of those rewards flow to us anyway. We just feel like better people at the end of the day. And
Michael Mitchel: are so what are you a black belt in? Because I know you’re a black belt.
Sean Odendahl: Yeah. Uh, so, [00:27:00] uh, TaeKwonDo is the one that we focus on, the family. I did a, a few others, but yes. And then, uh, currently my daughter, my son and I are all gonna be training for our.
Fourth degrees. My wife says she was done after her black belt. Mm-hmm. She didn’t like being kicked anymore and, you know, going home with bruises was no longer, and, you know, that didn’t work well with her, sort of, you know, uh, uh, tennis regimen she had. Um, so that’s, that’s the one we do. And there it has a, we have a wonderful dojang and a lot of community members involved at and includes classes for kids outside in the communities and disenfranchised communities.
And a lot of the ethos of that particular community is to give back. So I’m, we got a lot of rewards.
Michael Mitchel: I’m a white belt and a keto.
Sean Odendahl: A keto, yeah. Well, the white belt, but a very practical martial art. Well,
Michael Mitchel: you know what I like about a keto is you’re using the energy of the aggressor against themselves. Yes.
It’s really all about deflection. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it’s the coolest thing, so it really is. [00:28:00] I find the mentor conversation really interesting how, if someone’s interested in having a mentor
Sean Odendahl: mm-hmm.
Michael Mitchel: What does that look like? How do they set that up? Do they just, is it happen organically or do you, do I come to Sean and say, Sean, I need a mentor, or, Sean, will you be my mentor?
I mean, how is that first conversation occurring?
Sean Odendahl: Yeah. I think, uh, for me, often I forge relationships with people as, as a mentee. And in almost in hindsight, I’m like, oh, I have a mentor here. So for me, it was most successful where I went out and found my mentor. In fact, I found lots of people who were willing to be mentors.
If I took the first step, if I kind of owned setting up and starting the relationship that is, you know, um, they enjoyed the time they spent with me. Now lots of organizations have structures, uh, to put in place and, you know, initiate mentor mentee relationships. Um, those are better than nothing, but I think, you know, those can be tough.
Um, I think if from a mentee perspective, um, within the [00:29:00] organization or community, what I is, I found somebody that I liked. And they happened to be wired a little bit like me. That’s the kind of relationship that, that I needed. Others may view it, you know, differently. Maybe they want somebody quite different from them, and I own my own future in that.
And the law firm context, I hung out outside their door until they paid attention to me and, um, I would ask them questions. You know, I would search for the point where I might be becoming annoying and stop short of that. But I, I reached out for the mentor relationship. I think if some of my organization right now, uh, were to come to me and say.
Sean, maybe not you, but you know, I need a mentor As somebody in my organization, I would sit there and I would think about how they’re wired and I might ask them some questions and help set that up. The ultimate fallback for us is within the organization, we have the structure, kind of you sign up for it.
I just happen to think those can be a bit more challenging to really get off the ground and people should not be afraid if they’re not working out. You’re not locked into anything. It’s, it’s all ultimately about [00:30:00] finding and establishing a relationship of trust.
Michael Mitchel: Is there a conversation establishing, well, the fence line guideline, I mean, it’s like, okay, here’s our mm-hmm.
We’re gonna just talk ad hoc or we’re gonna talk on a regular basis. You know what, what is that? Structure look like.
Sean Odendahl: Yeah. It probably won’t be a surprise. As a Chief Transformation Officer, I love like project plans and accountability. I mean, I tend to believe that having some structure to these, especially if there’s an actual objective other than just kind of, you know, getting to know each other, it helps to have structure.
So we have a program that we will use where I’ve been a mentor, um, we call it coaching the coaches. Mm-hmm. And so there we’ll have. It’s, it’s fairly well structured. We have a regular meeting cadence. Uh, the mentee has, um, certain things that I know they are focused on doing. This is largely. In my boiled down view about being comfortable in your own skin and, and, and going out and doing what you’re gonna do and, and building a, uh, business relationships.
But I know they have certain pieces of homework and allows me to then refresh on that homework as well. And then we [00:31:00] have a structured conversation around that. So I would call that a very goal oriented, specific goal oriented version of mentor mentee relationships. Uh, and, and those I think should have the structure, the other types of mentor mentee relationships call it a, a longer.
Term more casual or informal, I think can also benefit from, you know, just sitting there. I’ll do this with some of my more casual mentees, you know, we’ll just, you know, get lunch, you know, quarterly or every couple months. It’s on the calendar, then I know it will happen. So some structure is good. The more structured your objective, the more structure you might use.
But you know, things will wither on the vine if you don’t nourish ’em a little.
Michael Mitchel: And also, is it. The fo should the focus for the mentee to be have one mentor, is it okay to have more than one mentor?
Sean Odendahl: I think it’s okay to have more than one mentor. I think you have different mentors for different. I’m glad you said that.
Objective.
Michael Mitchel: That’s, that’s kind my mo right. Um, one for general business, you know, I got one for in sales focus marketing. Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] You know, and I don’t know if there’s so much mentors but trusted advisors because I think there’s a difference. I do, I can pick, I can point to like three true mentors. Mm-hmm.
And then trusted advisors.
Sean Odendahl: I think that’s a good way of, of breaking some of ’em down in the kinda Yeah. Roles they play. Yeah.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah.
Sean Odendahl: I can think of the same. I think of the, um, some of the people coming up through my legal career in particular. I remember one of my first, you know, mentors was a corporate partner.
Her name was wsu, and she wouldn’t always get, um, some of the best work, meaning she had a scramble for it, you know, big, you know, corporate law firms, you know, and women in particular at that time forging head. But she took me under wing and made sure I became better.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah.
Sean Odendahl: Um, judge, uh, chief Judge Mary Schroeder on the ninth circuit.
Ru my clerk. I mean, she was an absolute, uh, firebrand as she has remained a true mentor and a, a trusted advisor. You know? ’cause she actively thought not only about my career, but. What would make me happy
Michael Mitchel: to this day?
Sean Odendahl: To this day.
Michael Mitchel: So you’ve been with, [00:33:00] uh, Brian Cave now for over 19 years. Yep. You were a law firm before that.
Yep. So we’re talking about a 20, at least a 23 year relationship.
Sean Odendahl: That’s right. Yep. She is the proverbial mama tiger with all of her clerks. We have clerks reunions. Um, she cares about what we are doing. Um, she connects us sometimes. She pushes us to do more, especially in our communities. She’s fan, a fantastic mentor and trusted advisor.
Uh, but do not go to Chief Judge Schroeder for faint praise, right? Yeah, right. She’ll hold you, she’ll be honest with you.
Michael Mitchel: So the last area I wanna just briefly hit on is. There’s a difference between mentor, trusted advisor
Sean Odendahl: Yep.
Michael Mitchel: And internal sponsor.
Sean Odendahl: Yes.
Michael Mitchel: Right. So again, for, I think this would be officially a third time at a global law firm.
Yep. Um, you know, it’s the associates. The role of an internal sponsor is for the Associates blank.
Sean Odendahl: So the way, we have a couple ways we use internal sponsors, but it’s really to [00:34:00] advocate for that associate. One does so with the firm’s interest in mind as well, but it’s really to help prepare and and advocate for that associate.
So I just came back, actually I spent the last few days in our St. Louis office ’cause we had a global sponsorship program and these were all more senior associates who were, you know, we wanna make sure they have the opportunities to grow and the partnership. And they were giving us presentations on an idea they had and they were all sponsored by a partner generally within kind of the same practice area.
And you saw some were wonderful sponsor relationships and some were more challenging.
Michael Mitchel: Mm-hmm.
Sean Odendahl: The ones that were wonderful, the sponsor was more quiet in the background, supportive, listened when something maybe, you know, to make sure this person got their moment in the, in the limelight. The ones that were less successful, they owned the presentation.
So it was a good, oh, interesting example. Seeing effective sponsorship.
Michael Mitchel: When I think of sponsorship, it’s also someone who’s advocating for the individual Yeah. For opportunities. Yep. Um, so they have the opportunity to advance [00:35:00] Yep. You know, a special project, a new initiative, whatever that might be. But they’re also, but they’re not the mentor.
Mm-hmm. Because I think that’s, I think there could be a conflict in some, in, in some cases. I just think that’s a different role. Mm-hmm. Um, and. I, I don’t know. You know, we’re, we’re in the 41st floor in the cash register building here in Denver. Mm-hmm. And you just think about how many empty offices and desks are in this building.
Yep. And for me, I think that represents lost opportunities in someone’s career. Yeah. Right. Um, they’re not in an office gaining that, um, organic mentorship and, and relationship for sponsorship opportunities. And so I think, you know, there’s always talk about working from home. I don’t wanna go back to the office.
That’s great. But in seven years, you have no one the blame but yourself while you’re still a middle manager.
Sean Odendahl: Oh, well, that’s right. It’s, um, and we, we are spending a lot of time talking about, you know, what is the balance between, you know, work from home versus being the office. And, you know, thinking back on my own personal [00:36:00] experience, it’s, boy, it’s the time around the water cooler, if you will, in the office.
Yeah. Where you learn so much of your craft.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah. And it’s, it is just the, the, the pickup conversations. Yeah.
Sean Odendahl: Right. Yeah. And that’s
Michael Mitchel: hard to do over Zoom. It is. No one chitchats on Zoom. No. No one has those conversations. No. Yeah. So, uh, clo wrapping this up. Mm-hmm. What are one or one or two key points solicitors should take away from this conversation?
Sean Odendahl: Um, I think to, um. The ones that are sitting with me, go out and be a mentor and, and look to also be a mentee. ’cause you’re, you have the opportunity to continue to learn on both ends. Um, I think, uh, keep one’s perspective open, um, and ask questions so you don’t always know what good looks like and know that you may not know what good looks like.
Uh, and people too infrequently ask questions. You know, we’re wonderful, curious creatures. Don’t be afraid to let some of that curiosity out of the bottle. Right. That those are, I think, key takeaways.
Michael Mitchel: Nice. All right, well with [00:37:00] that, thank you Sean for your time. I really appreciate it. Uh, I wanna thank our listeners, uh, for listening and also if you’d like to show, give us five stars on Apple.
It’s really how people will find other people will find the show. Thank you Apple Algorithm for that. And if you wanna find me on LinkedIn, it’s Michael Mitchell with one L. That’s the test in Denver. And also thank you Jalan Crossland for allowing me use your amazing music on the show and a special shadow.
And thanks to my engineer Kyle Moore. Thanks everybody. Thank you, Sean. Thank again.
Sean Odendahl: Thank you Michael. And I, I do feel service obligated to say, go Army beat Navy.
Michael Mitchel: Go Navy.
