CXO Conversation Podcast

Industrial shop floor to tech C suite

Jay McMullan is a CRO who started his sales career at an industrial supply company and observed what was happening in the technology sector and said – I want in on that.
For those who wonder how to make the transition from one sector to another, this is a conversation not to be missed.

In this episode, Jay discusses:

  • How he transitioned from the industrial shop floor to a tech company
  • How he demonstrated his skills to overcome lack of Tech experience
  • As a member of the executive committee, how the CRO contributes to company strategy

David has held leadership roles at companies such as Amdocs, Ericsson and others. He truly enjoys sales, relationship building and serving as a trusted advisor to his clients.

Enjoy the show? Review us on iTunes– thanks!

Thank you Jalan Crossland for lending your award-winning banjo skills to CXO Conversations.

More

Episode Transcription

Michael Mitchel:

CXO Conversation talks with C-level executives on how they reach the C-suite and what advice would they give those who want to be one. Today, Chief Revenue Officer Jay McMullen joins us to discuss the challenge of change in industries and the difference between VP of Sales and CRO and what that transition is like. For Jay’s full bio, please see the show notes. Welcome to the conversation, Jay.

Jay McMullen:

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Michael Mitchel:

No, I’m looking forward to the call. I know we kind of went back a little bit on scheduling that happens, so I’m glad we’re here today. So a little bit about you and just kind of get things going. You were in industrial distribution, you started your career, so we’re talking like blue collar, warehouse, big shelves, big stuff, right?

Jay McMullen:

Big stuff, industrial wire and cable, electric wire and cable, not power, but industrial wire and cable. So large factory floors, pulp and paper, instrumentation that controlled the factory floor. Things like that.

Michael Mitchel:

Yeah. And so you decided you wanted to do a pivot from that industry to a completely different sector altogether. Tell me a little bit about that.

Jay McMullen:

Well, I spent 10 years doing that and I had grown my career in that organization to running the US and Canada sales. And I’d been top sales in the West, top sales in the Midwest, things like that, and top sales for the company and they promoted me up through the ranks, probably because I was a top performer, not because I had this inherent gift for sales leadership and I needed to learn that craft, but I decided at that, as I was moving up the food chain and I’m watching all my friends who had been doing these early stage companies, they were coming in and within a year or two were being acquired, putting a lot of money in the bank and I’m looking at what I’m making and thinking I’m top guy and these guys are killing it. So maybe I need to broaden my horizons into something else that might not be as industrial, but more up the stack of value within enterprise customers.

Michael Mitchel:

So when you say startups, are we talking tech startups?

Jay McMullen:

Tech startups with less than 20 people, less than 10 people, and then trying to make something of that from the ground up.

Michael Mitchel:

And what about what year is this?

Jay McMullen:

2001.

Michael Mitchel:

Okay, so how did you decide what companies to go after? I mean, when you say startup, I mean that’s pretty, it could have been a company that focuses on FinTech or E-commerce, I mean, there’s so many different channels within that. How did you start, I mean, what was your thinking process? I really want to understand. I want to be a fly on the wall on this part. I really do, because I find that when people make these pivots very, very fascinating. So you’re in blue collar, let’s just call it, right? Nothing wrong with that-

Jay McMullen:

Electrical contractors.

Michael Mitchel:

Electrical contractors. You want to get into startups, how did you research the companies? How did you decide which ones to go after and what was that first conversation like when you reached out to them?

Jay McMullen:

Right. So when I was doing my research, I had been calling, and in the 1999, 2000, 2001 time horizon, there was an immense amount of infrastructure being built, especially as it related to the internet and things that were being built for, I’d say fiber and fiber in the ground for technology. And because of that, there were companies that wanted to make use of the infrastructure and be a value added service for people at the time like Quest or the small CLaCS that were around the US before the meltdown. So when I was researching it, I was trying to keep it where my story was close enough, adjacent enough that I knew who the players were generally within the ideal client profile of the startups and then I looked to see if I knew anyone that I would’ve been connected to within the organization, that I could have maybe a friendly conversation.

Michael Mitchel:

I’m going to jump in for a second, don’t lose that thought, train of thought. But this is pre-LinkedIn?

Jay McMullen:

Correct.

Michael Mitchel:

So how are you finding people that were at those companies?

Jay McMullen:

This was before LinkedIn, as you say. So at the time I was reaching out through my industrial distribution network that were all in the Bay Area, because I’d been going to the most of our large distribution when I was living in Denver, was in California. So I spent a lot of time in the valley and I was getting to see, okay, who are the prime startups? Anybody we know, have they gone to friends, close colleagues that could recommend? So I was networking that way and people in Denver that were looking to move to California, things of that, in that kind of space. So it really was a lot of just cold outreach to people that I’d known and really starting to look because it was even early internet in terms of websites and things like that, building out your presence online, it was totally different.

So I found a startup that I had a connection. It was all around virtual routing, virtual firewalls and I wasn’t a routing guy and I wasn’t a hardware guy, but I had definitely done big deals in the industrial side. When I think of a big deal, million dollars plus and when you’re thinking about that in the wire and cable arena, that’s truckloads of cable. So the first things I would be asked were, “Do you think you can sell something this expensive?” Because the value exchange was, if it’s a million dollar box, how are you going to get somebody to buy that if you’ve been selling cable that’s 30 cents a foot and you had to wrap the story into your go-to market, how do you view an account? Where do you start? Really the sales process is pretty transferable, it’s just what are you selling?

Michael Mitchel:

That’s what I was picking up on. So when you’re going to a startup and they look at you and they’re like, “Well, you’re not in this space at all.” You’re leveraging your experience of selling big deals.

Jay McMullen:

That’s right.

Michael Mitchel:

Gotcha.

Jay McMullen:

Selling big deals, technology-agnostic, understanding how to construct a big deal and then figuring out a complex account, because when you are doing, whether it’s an IT project or something, anything below a million, it’s pretty much, there’s probably a lot of competitors. Above a million, it starts to really, you’re competing against the big incumbents of whatever it is you’re selling. And in that motion you have to be able to articulate how you got a deal done. And if you’re missing that gap, if it’s just I answered the phone, that’s probably not going to get it through.

Michael Mitchel:

You’re really hitting on it.

Jay McMullen:

Does that make sense?

Michael Mitchel:

It absolutely does. What you’re hitting on is when you’re looking to pivot from one area, a completely career pivot-

Jay McMullen:

Complete career.

Michael Mitchel:

… Leverage on your strengths, you figure out what strengths in you are transferable.

Jay McMullen:

Correct.

Michael Mitchel:

Yeah.

Jay McMullen:

What strengths are transferable rather than expose the soft underbelly of what you’re not good at, which is I’ve never, I don’t understand BGP or OSPF or NAT or any of these buzzwords of routing. I don’t know anything about routing tables, but what I do know, put that aside. Let me tell you what-

Michael Mitchel:

That can be learned.

Jay McMullen:

Yeah.

Michael Mitchel:

Yeah. But what you brought to the table was the harder skill of the selling, the larger deal and then positioning that.

Jay McMullen:

Also in the particular startup that I had finally settled on, where I had a connection and the head of sales at the time was like, “You have no experience.” We found some personal commonality, we talked about how I go and solve complex problems with angry customers. Turned out they had a very angry customer here in Denver and they needed someone who could come in and both repair the executive relationships. It wasn’t so much that I didn’t know the technology, but that I could heal the relationship for the company, rebuild our brand, and then get to the next deal.

Michael Mitchel:

Because in that situation, the executive, he’s not going to ask you any technical specs. This is more about relationship and bigger issues.

Jay McMullen:

Bigger issues, and you have 20 minutes to tell me why this stuff doesn’t suck.

Michael Mitchel:

How many companies did you talk with before you landed with one?

Jay McMullen:

I probably talked to, I guess around 10 total companies. There was a lot of doors closed. There were a lot of things that you would be discouraged by if you didn’t realize that this is where I want to get to. And that company I ultimately settled with, which was a great place to learn and take a lot of lessons into my next startup, was they were the most receptive, the company I went to, the other companies had a different requirement. They actually wanted somebody who was in the weeds technically. And I already knew at that point I wasn’t going to make it through. Maybe today I would, but then I was coming out of wire and cable.

Michael Mitchel:

Okay.

Jay McMullen:

Does that make sense?

Michael Mitchel:

No, it does. So between that one and 10 at which number 3, 4, 7 were, you’re like, “Okay.” Did you have that moment you’re like, “Am I doing the right thing?” Did you ever have a moment of self-doubt?

Jay McMullen:

Self-doubt, all the time. And in fact, even when I got the job, I almost had a bit of imposters syndrome of, “Man, I don’t know if I can do this.” And then you just got to face that self-doubt and march on through. You got to break some glass.

I’d say probably around company six. I started to talk to my family about, my girlfriend at the time, I was like, “Man, I’m not sure about this, but I know that if I stay here, I’m going to be relegated to a job that I’m not going to like when I’m 50 years old.” That was how I thought about it.

Michael Mitchel:

How long did this take?

Jay McMullen:

Probably took six months. I had a job.

Michael Mitchel:

So you kept the day job?

Jay McMullen:

I kept my day job and I was just searching on the side and doing research and again, a lot of friends in the Bay Area that were, “Here’s who’s hot, here’s…”-

Michael Mitchel:

But for those six months you basically had two jobs?

Jay McMullen:

That’s right.

Michael Mitchel:

You had the day job. And then looking for this new career is a job.

Jay McMullen:

Right.

Michael Mitchel:

How did you balance those two?

Jay McMullen:

Lot of hours, a lot of early mornings. Time, if you have a break in the middle of the day, things like that. But I was already in a sales job, so it’s not constant, if you’re not in customer meetings, maybe I take an hour or half an hour during the day.

Michael Mitchel:

And logistically it’s easier to do that today than it was then because you could do interviews on Zoom. I mean, just the mobile phone technology is such that it’s easier to step out for an interview than, I mean in ’01-

Jay McMullen:

Mobile internet was not even here. The one thing that’s the same though is the networking component. It’s just-

Michael Mitchel:

Absolutely.

Jay McMullen:

… The hard work of networking then is different than the, I almost feel like the networking then was a tighter group, because I couldn’t go that wide. I mean, you’re paying long distance. I mean long distance isn’t even a thing now.

Michael Mitchel:

Long distance, what’s that? So it took six months. And you mentioned that even once you got on-

Jay McMullen:

I mean I got further along with a few companies, but I just didn’t want, culturally not a fit.

Michael Mitchel:

So you actually started saying, “Okay, I want to make this pivot.” But you didn’t just grab one that would take you, you were like, “Okay, hang on, this isn’t going to play out.”

Jay McMullen:

That is not going to work for me or-

Michael Mitchel:

That’s a hard call to do.

Jay McMullen:

Well, again, I don’t want to go in and set myself up for failure. And consequently, what I was looking for was, one, I need a place that I’m going to be able to have a chance to actually learn what the tech is, in parallel, I’ve got to learn it, figure out what the pitch is, get to the customer, get pipeline, get to a deal, things like that on something I’ve never sold before. And I really didn’t come, I mean, the one thing about my earliest job was they did have a lot of sales training in terms of inside sales and what’s it like to be at what we would call an SDR or a BDR today, it prepared me for all of those things, but you had to be able to translate that into the speak of the tech-startup world.

But I definitely got some raised eyebrows when I said to my girlfriend that, now my wife, but I was like, “Yeah, I don’t think that one’s right for me.” “Well you going to take a job or not?”

Michael Mitchel:

At least you had the day job still.

Jay McMullen:

Yeah, at least I had a day job.

Michael Mitchel:

If you were on the beach, that would’ve been different.

Jay McMullen:

I might have taken a different path.

Michael Mitchel:

And that would’ve been a short term game, but it might have just knocked you back long term.

Jay McMullen:

But I had a job. If I didn’t, I might have made a different decision, maybe I would’ve stayed in the same industry.

Michael Mitchel:

So when you look back at those six months and that whole process, anything you would’ve done differently? What did you learn from that?

Jay McMullen:

I think the things I would’ve done differently are things I know today versus and how we communicate and Zoom and Teams and all the collaboration tools that exist, that didn’t exist then. But I think I might have considered not, we were not a hub in Denver as a startup community at the time. We were much more VC centric and we have a lot more startup community today than we did. And I probably should have just moved there or taken a bigger risk if I was going to bet at all than try to do it remote.

Michael Mitchel:

But also going back in time yet again, ’01, I mean, I call it the dot bomb went off, because the upset moment in the late nineties, those .com this, that, startup, but the startup committee wasn’t, and I could be wrong, you know how our memory is, right?

Jay McMullen:

Sure.

Michael Mitchel:

But my sense is the startup community wasn’t as robust as it is today or as willing to take chances on people. I think that back then it was, am I wrong or is this just like, am I having a false sense of memory on this?

Jay McMullen:

No, I mean, definitely I had to lean in on some personal relationships to get the job that I got. I’m grateful for it because it changed my life and the people that supported me at the time. And it changed my life for the better and I’ve been nothing but growing since then, both professionally and now what I understand about how all this stuff works.

Michael Mitchel:

So you’re a C-level executive today, and we’re going to get to that in a second, but when you look at younger people today who are trying to do what you’re doing, do you think it’s easier for them to make those kind of leaps?

Jay McMullen:

No, I think it’s the same. I think that you have to have the same excitement of wanting to take that chance. I want to learn. I’m comfortable taking a risk that, hey, I don’t know anything about that, but I’m going to do it. And that’s what I think as a hiring leader, if I hear apathy or I hear the tone of voice, because I don’t necessarily do a video call right out of the gate because I just want to hear how the phone conversation goes and then I’ll go to video or it just depends on who the candidate is. But I think if you haven’t had the experience of exactly what you’re applying for, but you have other job experiences, there are lessons learned that can be transferred over and you just have to be slightly creative in changing your narrative to fit the job you’re trying to get.

Michael Mitchel:

Interesting. Okay, because I didn’t know if LinkedIn makes it easier network.

Jay McMullen:

I think it’s easier to connect. Well, all I mean is to get someone to take the chance to give you the job.

It’s definitely easier to use LinkedIn, all the other social platforms that are out there for finding jobs, Twitter, whatever it might be, there’s tons of ways to get access to the jobs, but I just read that a lot of jobs posted are considered ghost jobs.

Michael Mitchel:

Really?

Jay McMullen:

And I don’t know if that’s true or not.

Michael Mitchel:

Where they’re just trying to build up a database?

Jay McMullen:

Build up a database of potential, and if they find that needle in a haystack and you’re an unbelievable hire, “Oh, we’ve been looking for that.”

Michael Mitchel:

If the AI recognizes that.

Jay McMullen:

Exactly.

Michael Mitchel:

Yeah.

Jay McMullen:

So I do think that’s, but with LinkedIn, Meta, all the other opportunities to network online.

Michael Mitchel:

You’ve worked, Jay, with both large and small companies. As a sales leader, what do you feel are some of the pros and cons?

Jay McMullen:

On the small company side, the pros, I’ll look at both on the pros side first, on the small company pros, it can be both scary and rewarding, but you know immediately what you do every day is having an impact on the business, that is an emotional rush. And as you have said before, in terms of that call at 5:10 on a Friday and you got two searches out of it, and the excitement that comes from that, that’s the thrill of being in a small company, I finally cracked this code, I got it over the line.

It’s a team sport, you never lose alone, it’s okay to win alone, but it’s not okay to lose alone. And when you figured it out, that’s when you can really propel your career because you’ve cracked the code, you’ve done all these cold calls, you’ve gotten to a transaction, you’ve gotten to a deal, you’re becoming a seller as an incumbent versus just this challenger small company. That transition is super exciting. And when you figure it out, it’s even more exciting, I won, I got this over the line. I think that’s a pro of small companies and I think that’s why people keep coming back to small companies because typically when you’re acquired or you’ve gone into a big company, you see people that are motivated to grow and then you see people who are on the bench just kind of grinding through their life. And doesn’t matter if they…

Michael Mitchel:

They’re a bureaucrat.

Jay McMullen:

Yeah, they’re managing their manager. They’re doing exactly what they’re told. They don’t take out the trash, they don’t do the laundry, they don’t do, hypothetically speaking, there’s a lot of good people in big companies, don’t get me wrong. I think the pros of a big company, it may appear stable, I actually think it’s just as unstable.

Michael Mitchel:

That’s the biggest fallacy.

Jay McMullen:

As a small company because you still have to produce and if you have that mindset, and even in big companies, small companies are always worried about cash. Big companies are too. What’s your days outstanding on your invoices and how long are people past due? And they’re concerned about it because that’s what they’re judged on from Wall Street. Small companies are concerned about it because they got to make payroll. But it’s still, it’s a similar concern.

Because if the street stops, that’s where everybody’s comp is tied up is in the equity.

Michael Mitchel:

Plus, I would just think that it’s harder to turn the ship on a big company because I mean, there’s so many people there are going to weigh in and you’ve got to test it and got to filter the message down. And I mean, it’s just where small companies are like, “Okay, let’s do that.” Boom, boom, right? But I’m not saying you’re making snap decisions. You do your research and then you have a meeting, you discuss it, you act on it.

Jay McMullen:

I want to go into this region, we haven’t sold there before, let me tell you what the addressable market is, let me tell you why we should do it. All right, let’s go hire a couple guys, let’s go try it.

Michael Mitchel:

You do that at big Co., what happens?

Jay McMullen:

Let’s budget for that for 2024, we’ll see how it goes through the first three quarters of the year. We’ll see if that holds up. Maybe we do it, maybe it’s below the line. It’s like selling into giant tier one enterprises. If you don’t make the cut, then your project slips to the next year and-

Michael Mitchel:

I’m a half glass full kind of guy. So what skills are transferable from big Co. to small Co.?

Jay McMullen:

And vice versa, I would say big Co. to small Co. if you have a strong personal accountability model that you’re contributing every day, that every day you wake up, it’s cold calling, it’s finding new opportunities, things like that. You’re not resting on the brand of the organization that you work for, you will actually be wildly successful because you have a brand behind you. The same thing applies as well in the small company side. That mindset going to the small company is essential. What doesn’t transfer well in a big company to small is if you walk in thinking I’m going to have a team to help me build presentations, quotes, statements of work, whatever the documentation that may or may not exist yet, probably not a Bid Desk, you’re not going to have a crew of BDRs that are creating leads for you to go call that are warm to then take the cold call from the junior person to somebody who can go close. So I think what can be transferred, financial metrics, DSO, what is important from the financial side of big companies translates very well to small companies.

Michael Mitchel:

So the maturity and the discipline of the sales model?

Jay McMullen:

That’s right.

Michael Mitchel:

And the pipeline management.

Jay McMullen:

Pipeline management, CRM, Salesforce, HubSpot, what’s my playbook? And am I adhering to the playbook? How would I take a big company playbook and could I transfer it into a-

Michael Mitchel:

And boil it down.

Jay McMullen:

And boil it down?

Michael Mitchel:

A big Co. has a 15 step process. You can say-

Jay McMullen:

You read my mind.

Michael Mitchel:

Here’s the best of it. We’ll get rid of the filler stuff in between because we don’t have to interact with those departments or we don’t need to go through that step. We just get it done.

Jay McMullen:

And maybe instead of 15, it’s five.

Michael Mitchel:

Right.

Jay McMullen:

Discovery or maybe there’s a big Co. playbook that had four steps, which I did sell a company into, and they only had four, bid, win, loss and I didn’t feel that that was enough. There’s a little bit more in…

Michael Mitchel:

Do you feel that advancement opportunity at a small Co. is greater than a big Co.?

Jay McMullen:

I do think the advancement opportunity in a small company is probably faster to move up or try other jobs within an organization, because the speed at which decisions get made is faster. I think if you are a top performer and you’re creative and you’re doing all the things that you would do at a small Co. but you’re doing at big Co., I’ve certainly moved up in my career at big Co.’s but it takes probably a little more time, instead of six months or a year, maybe it takes a year and a half.

Michael Mitchel:

But okay, so you’re at a small Co. you move up to, say a VP of sales, then you go to a, we’ll call middle Co., mid-Co. Middle-sized company or you do jump over to big Co. and the equivalents to step up, I mean, you’re not going to go from being VP of a small Co. to a VP of an IBM. You could be a regional VP or an AVP, whatever-

Jay McMullen:

Senior director.

Michael Mitchel:

Senior director. Are they going to be getting over their skis or you may hit a little bit of rapids, but is that transition doable or are they being set for failure?

Jay McMullen:

I think the size and scale is where a lot of people that try to transition from small Co. to mid-Co. or large Co. or big Co. However we’re going to say it, but here’s what I would say, if you’ve already grown small Co. and you’re doing lots of transact, you’re doing deals and you’ve got a big company perspective of your customer base, and for example, you’re selling to a large company locally, maybe you’re selling to DaVita or something like that. When you’ve sold to a big company like that, that’s transferable in big Co. But if you’re managing people and you’re only managing three and now you’re managing a hundred, that’s a learning curve that I think big companies fear when small Co. people come in.

Michael Mitchel:

Interesting, okay. As a CRO and you’re a member of the executive team, how do you contribute to larger discussions and strategy that’s beyond sales?

Jay McMullen:

Yeah, good question, because it’s not about the, again, revenue is always king and there’s always a saying that sales fixes everything. But the strategic conversations are, hey, what’s geo-economic conditions, competitors, things that are coming up through the sales process that we should be thinking about that could be a competitor a year from now, we should be keeping an eye on them. I think those are all very relevant. Strategy conversations, acquisition targets, hey, this company is small, but they’ve got cool tech and our customers love them. We should be thinking about maybe bringing them in or if the company is funded, well-funded, capital. But I would say those are the biggest strategy conversations, pipeline, where should we go next? Are there other strategic markets that we are not penetrating now? Could we take what we sell today to this line of business and then sell it to a completely different line of business to expand our horizons and addressable market for the business?

Michael Mitchel:

But so you’re at a company and they’ve got a VP of product management, product development, so you’ve got to be interacting with those folks because those folks are interacting with everybody in the organization. Marketing sale, I have pricing for go to market, but marketing how to brand and position it, obviously development R&D for baking it out and they’re also dealing with their clients. So you’re doing the same thing, but from the other side of the table. So you’re interacting with them, you’re interacting with all the departments as well.

Jay McMullen:

For sure, and there’s always friction between product and sales anyway, because product can only can deliver so much. It’s a trinity of friction because you got engineering, development, you got product, you got sales, you need to do more on product, but that-

Michael Mitchel:

Tech people always think it’s the solution that sells and not the salespeople.

Jay McMullen:

That’s right, but it’s always the salespeople who sold it, just ask them. And generally, I think that that mindset, you have to be giving that product guy the insights, here’s what the customer said, but you also need the product expertise to help bring the customer along. So I think it goes both ways.

Michael Mitchel:

Well, I’m going to wrap this up. I’m enjoying the conversation. I ask every guest this question, what’s the worst job you’ve ever had and what did you take away from that that you still use today?

Jay McMullen:

Well, I’ve had a lot of terrible bosses, but my worst job ever, I got to say when I was 16 years old, I took a job, pouching pipe tobacco, where I grew up in Ohio, and it was a very factory-like, it was just me in this back room, pouching tobacco, but I had a set quota of bags I had to pouch every day and it was a nightmare, because I’m tall, as you know, and it was hard to pouch for me, I don’t know if it was my dexterity or whatever it was, but taking small bags of to tobacco and making it fit and weighing exactly to the gram, I hated it. Anyway, I hated it and I couldn’t pouch fast enough, so I lost my job. And what did I learn from that was time is never on our side, whether you’re selling something, you’re pouching tobacco, it’s all about being efficient in your job and making sure that you become as best as you can. Keep practicing, keep practicing. And I probably didn’t take it seriously enough, I was 16, but yeah, I mean, time kills all deals.

Michael Mitchel:

That’s right. I should trademark that because I say that all the time. It’s absolutely true. It doesn’t matter what it is. Time goes all deals.

Jay McMullen:

Right? It doesn’t matter what it is. You’re going to buy a car and you don’t buy it on the spot, the guy knows you’re not probably going to buy it.

Michael Mitchel:

Well, Jay, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for being on CXO Conversations podcast.

Jay McMullen:

Thank you.

Michael Mitchel:

Thank you.

Jay McMullen:

This was great. I thought the level of conversation, we went deep.

Michael Mitchel:

We did. Yeah, like I said, we’re going to-

Jay McMullen:

We went deep.

Michael Mitchel:

We did. It went in places I wasn’t expecting, let’s put it that way. I want to thank the listeners for listening to CXO Conversations. Please jump on iTunes, give us five stars, hopefully you liked it and you like this enough to give us five stars, so I’ll make it easier for other people to find the show and enjoy it and learn as well. If you want to contact me, feel free to find me on LinkedIn. It’s Michael Mitchel with one L out of Denver, and thanks for listening. Also, I want to thank Jalan Crossland for allowing me to use your amazing music on the show. You’re the best banjo player I have ever met.

Thanks a lot, everybody. Next time.

Listen on:

GooglePlay