In “Heather Callender-Potters, Founder and Board Member. Hiring a CEO and Board Member Perspectives,” Heather shares lessons from a remarkable career that began in Poland just after the fall of the Berlin Wall, bringing access to capital during a time of historic transformation. Now co-founder of PharmaJet and a seasoned board member, Heather reflects on the challenges of handing over leadership to a CEO, the importance of cultural fit versus just résumé credentials, and why resilience and trust are critical in executive roles. She also offers candid advice for first-time board members on adding value, building confidence, and contributing authentically without ego.
For the full interview: https://ocns.co/heather-callenderpotters-founder-and-board-member/
10 Min Clip Transcript
Michael Mitchel: [00:00:00] All right.
Heather Callender-Potters: I’m
Michael Mitchel: gonna kick it.
Today I am talking with Heather Potters, a fascinating executive who started her career by bringing access to capital to Poland right after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Real traveler, investor, co-founder, board member, and more. Heather is the co-founder of Pharma Jett, and serves on several boards after earning her MBA from Morton, Heather leveraged her childhood experiences of living in Chile.
And went to Poland just after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Today we’re gonna talk about starting a company and handing off to a CEO, who was homegrown and her perspective on executives from the boardroom. Thanks for joining us today. Heather, please, uh, do us a favor, share an interesting fact about yourself, uh, to the listeners.
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, goodness. An surpris question, I guess. Um, hobby of mine, uh, from way back when I learned to fly when I was, uh, 16. And,
Michael Mitchel: uh, any [00:01:00] particular, uh, aircraft?
Heather Callender-Potters: I learned on a Cessna one 40 tail dragger, and it was a bit of a family thing where, um, every kid got the opportunity to learn. And my uncle is a Hall of Fame pilot.
Um, so as, as, uh, it went, it was kind of like, if you can fly this, you can fly anything.
Michael Mitchel: My fantasy was always you got a pilot’s license and collect and get a warbird, an old vintage, uh, warbird, or an old Stetson or something like that. You know, something you actually can’t fly.
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, I apparently, like boats are expensive, so are airplanes, so I don’t have one of those.
Michael Mitchel: Um, so Kenny, what’s interesting is that you, you have, you have childhood years growing up in South America. Um, how long did that, was that for, and how do you feel that influenced you as a young adult in business?
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, I, I wouldn’t say I, I grew up there. I I definitely spent time. Um, I, I lived when I was, um, 14, almost 15 years old for, for summer in Chile. Studied abroad in [00:02:00] Spain, um, spent time traveling in, in South America as a kid. And, and I have to say that, that in combination with my parents who were active libertarians, Paul Harris Fellows, um, we had a very significant international exposure and upbringing.
Whether or not we went someplace or someone came to stay with us, but at a time in the world where there wasn’t very much news, there certainly wasn’t any online media. Um, you know, the rest of the world’s been struggling for a long time, uh, different countries for different reasons. And I think it just added a, uh, an amazing perspective about how large the world is.
Um. That there are conflicts, not everything goes well. And, and that certain economies have a basket of goods, you know, and you get to do what you do with that basket of goods. So it, it was transformative and it actually propelled me to make sure that everything I studied was in, had that international bent to it.
Michael Mitchel: Do you feel that, um, having that in that [00:03:00] international experience so young really had changed your perspective on business? I’m not saying that you knew it at the time, but do you think it made you more rounded, more self-confident as a young adult?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, I, I think being able to have an experience as a young person in another place where you can’t just pick up and go home makes you more resourceful.
Um, it takes a while, you know, for us all to, to reach that state of wisdom where we all know that we don’t know everything, you know, as little kids, we feel like we do. Um, but it, it, it certainly has. Positively affected my ability to interact in a really, um, responsible way. It’s so easy for people to judge, right?
But, but if you take a moment to understand the perspective that someone else has, which could be wildly different than your own. I think it forms a better basis for a conversation and then trying to accomplish whatever’s at hand. Um, whether or not that’s just an [00:04:00] exchange of buying something from someone or, or a negotiation or, or frankly, a, a whole partnership that’s got a legal structure together.
Michael Mitchel: So after earning your MBA, you went to Poland. Why Poland?
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, um, I have a little bit of that wonder, lust and push the envelope, um, in the international upbringing. So when the wall came down, um, I was in between years of business school and I had the opportunity to travel. Um, Western Europe to Eastern Europe.
So it was a big loop. Um, but it took me through and West Germany, Poland, chuckle Slovakia. And it was really remarkable because the Polish people, um, you know, have had a, a history where every few hundred years somebody comes through and tries to take Poland. It’s got some, some great assets, you know, big agricultural, uh, base, two more modern ports in between east and west.
And I think I was really struck with the, the, um. You know, kind of the [00:05:00] need that those people had to move from being part of the Soviet Union into an independent country. I thought in the back of my mind, wouldn’t it be great if I could do something? And, um, the year rolled around, um, one of the professors at my school was working on a brand new concept of privatization and there was a little advertisement about whether or not anybody might want to go and, and help with that.
So, um, I was actually supposed to move to Australia and take a job with Proctor and Gamble, but instead I, uh, went to Poland and my assignment was to be the first foreigner, uh, on the ground in what was an experiment that was created by President Bush, Sr. Together with the Chairman of Bear Stearns and Dylan Reed mm-hmm.
To create the SEED Act, which ultimately broke free US congressional funding to be put in closed end, uh, bonafide private equity structures to help [00:06:00] assist these countries with a transformation from basically almost no private sector to what you see today, which is an abundance of, of and predominant private sector activity.
Michael Mitchel: So what were those early years like?
Heather Callender-Potters: Grungy? Uh, so, uh, because of the lack of in infrastructure, it took 22 days to wire money because there were no retail banks and, and banking was restricted. Um, I lived without heat and water intermittently during the first year, not because there wasn’t heat and water, but because the pipes were corroded, uh, or they just, uh, turned the water off and dig up the street and fix them.
Uh, it was. It was really, uh, a remarkable and fast transformation finding that people were on every street corner selling something. Um, and inflation peaked at something like 89%, and a business started every day. Visibly you could see something start every single day and, [00:07:00] and pretty quickly within the. I would say the first three years of time things started to normalize and, you know, there was some standard infrastructure.
Uh, we helped create the first retail bank, as an example, a bit missionary, but we made a really nice return. Um, and, and you could start to see the beginnings of what really might happen. Uh, not only in Poland, but in other central Eastern European countries.
Michael Mitchel: You know, in the mid nineties, my, um, my wife had an opportunity for, to be a Fulbright scholar in, um, Albania for a year.
And we looked at it really closely. And then one of the things we noticed was there’s only power. On in the Capitol for four hours a day. And I thought, I thought it was gonna be adventurous, but I had a golden lab that I wouldn’t leave behind. So we ultimately, I think because of the dog, we didn’t go and we were always joking that, you know what, the first thing they do when there’s a revolt is a hang of foreigners.
Um, like six, eight months later, there [00:08:00] was a coup in the capital. So I guess that wasn’t quite a, it was just been when, it would just been really interesting years to be in Eastern Europe, Europe. In the nineties, have you been back to Poland since?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, I have, uh, for a, a semi family wedding, so my, my adoptive Polish family, if you will.
Yeah. Um, a woman who helped me raise my children, her daughter’s like my daughter. So the last time I was back was four years ago. And the transformation still continues, you know, absolutely stunning. But, you know, to, to address your comment, the further south and east in the central and eastern European.
Block of countries that you went, the harder it was and the worse off those countries were. Yeah, so Albania would’ve been, um, a tough go. Poland was kind of the darling of the fall of the wall, so you had the Polish Pope in place. In the Vatican, you had, uh, Le Ensa standing at the top [00:09:00] of the, the, you know, shipyard waving his solidarity flag.
Um, it was the industrial workhorse for much of the Soviet Union, so a lot of great assets, and then a whole number of people that remembered what it was like to do private business. Prior to World War ii, the Polish stock Exchange was one of the three most powerful stock exchanges in in Europe. And so it, it really had the basis for, um, success in comparison to some of the other countries.
Michael Mitchel: So, I mean, we’re gonna digress a little bit, but, um, we’ve been to Hungary a couple times. I don’t know if you made to Hungry yet, but they have a, a place called Memento Park. And when, you know, when the communists collapsed. They save some of the statues and it’s in one park in the suburbs out on the edge of the of, um, uh, Budapest.
It, it is pretty interesting. Yeah, so I, I, I’d love Eastern Europe. I love the films,
Heather Callender-Potters: beautiful places and very different cultures, even though it all seems like it’s in the same place. And, [00:10:00] and, um, some of the architecture. Um, in places like Hungary and, and Budapest and Prague, you know, it’s just off the charts.
World class in, in Poland, um, Hitler actually destroyed Warsaw and so it’s mostly been rebuilt, but yeah, extraordinary history for history busts out there.
Michael Mitchel: So, moving to current times. Um, can you, Bri, can you briefly introduce Pharma Jet?
Heather Callender-Potters: Sure. So, um, after three closed end funds, um, ultimately covering a region of up to 18 countries, I decided that I didn’t wanna spend my whole adult life, uh, living in Warsaw.
And, and not that Warsaw is a bad place, it’s just that I don’t have any Polish history. And, um, I began investing in some other things to diversify my way out of Warsaw. One of those, uh, things was the co-founding of Pharma Jett and Pharma Jett is a needle free jet injection technology, and that’s a fancy term for saying that we’re able to deliver a fluid injection into the [00:11:00] body, alternative to standard needles.
Mm-hmm. And when we started, um, and actually it was a business that my mother and I co-founded. Uh, we, we didn’t fess up in the early days ’cause it was two completely unqualified ladies trying to go off and conquer the world of immunization through needle free. Um, but when we started, we very intentionally focused on the vaccine world.
In part because there was horrific needle reuse, pass along disease, and there needed to be a better solution. So the World Health Organization actually had a call to action, you know, can someone please develop a needle free technology for that purpose? And then secondly, um, immunization is global. We all share the disease burden.
And today we’re in the middle of a. Prime example, our pandemic for COVID, where that’s very, very obvious. But generally, the world has come to a conclusion over time that if you don’t consistently immunize for certain core disease [00:12:00] indications, um, the risk is particularly if you’re in a lower middle income country, that you will get sick and be permanently affected.
So measles as an example. Um, can cause blindness and deafness and severe fevers and death. Uh, it’s, uh, 95% contagious. So in other words, if you’re not immunized from measles, you get measles, polio causes paralysis. Um, so, so at any rate. The, the birth cohort times the number of vaccines and market growing in perpetuity with a need for a safer, better solution.
And then the crown jewel really is what carries us on even further today, the ability to potentially make vaccines work better. We saw glimmers in our preclinical meaning animal studies of bigger, better, faster, longer, stronger immune responses. And we thought, oh boy, if that can work out, that would be extraordinary.
Uh, so over time our, our technology’s been developed in two platforms [00:13:00] and we have claims for existing vaccines. We are working on a number of novel vaccines. We have 140 development programs with nearly 60 partners globally. Um, and in many, many, many cases. We make vaccines work better, and either we can reduce the, the dose by moving from the muscle to the skin.
So functionally, about 80% less is the same in immune response. Mm-hmm. Or in the case of things like messenger, RNA and DNA, vaccines, which are now kind of household names thanks to COVID, um, we typically see a, a severalfold higher immune response versus needles. So the, the ability to play a role in bringing a number.
Of developments forward that might never have come about because they don’t work with needles very well or frankly, being able to accelerate, um, kinda cracking the code for a, a, a virus or, or a disease indication like cancer and being able to [00:14:00] manufacture something that can, can help. Um. Address that, fix that, um, is really, you know, what we focus on every day.
It’s, it’s an exciting future for Pharma Jett.
Michael Mitchel: So, pharma, pharma, Jett’s doing some COVID collaboration in India. And my, I guess what I was wondering is that the nature. Uh, pharma biotech being the international focus, or is that an influence from your global, um, perspective?
Heather Callender-Potters: I think it’s a combination of things.
Um, so because we’ve been at this for a while, you know, we show up in debut data at various conferences and, and that’s how we’ve been able to accumulate that and through networking our various partners. We have an easy approach to kind of try it. You’ll like it. If our devices are helpful to the pharmaceutical company in, in developing their products, we ultimately enter into a a licensing arrangement.
The pockets of activity around vaccine development are not limited to the United States. Certain large countries [00:15:00] over time had vaccine capability to address, you know, their own domestic needs. Brazil would be a great example, or Indonesia. Uh. Um, Europe, us, but, uh, increasingly over time the powerhouses of vaccine development and, and certainly manufacturing, um, have become India and then eventually China.
While China domestically supplies most of its product, um, India supplies lots of vaccines globally, lots of drugs and, and vaccines globally. So we’re fortunate enough to be able to be part of an established India pharma relationship. Where they’re utilizing our intradermal platform for advancement and, um, hopefully approval in short order mm-hmm.
Of their COVID vaccine.
Michael Mitchel: You, you mentioned starting Farm Jet with your mom. What advice would you give to somebody who’s looking to start a company with a family member?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, make sure that it’s. It’s, uh, [00:16:00] a basis of trust and honesty and that there’s some rationale for, for why there’s a skill base there.
You know, my, my parents, um, my, my entire family in most part have healthcare, um, you know, professions and degrees. And so, uh, my mother was one of those people. And so the combination of science and business and finance was very helpful to us at an early stage. But we always knew that we wanted to find people that were more capable, um, skilled in medical device.
Activities than we were to help us to build this business. So that was the plan from the early days and still continues to be that plan. My mother’s been retired for a good number of years, but, um, she would say exactly the same thing and, and yet the basis of trust and the, the vision that we had and the commitment that we had, um, was already there before we started Farm Jet.
You know, [00:17:00] she’s, she’s kinda like my best friend. We, we share a lot of, of everything, both good and bad.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah. Previously you’ve mentioned that the plan was always to bring on a CEO. Um, you know, I, I guess what was the, the experience like when the day came to turn over the keys?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, we’ve actually done it, I guess, three times.
Uh, so the first time, yeah, the first time you’d let go. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about product life cycles and or company life cycles, right? You, you get to a certain inflection point. Um. Where you certainly require more sophistication, but in, in med tech, the development stage is lots of testing and tweaking and regulatory before you’re ever able to get to a place where you can commercialize something.
So just before our first, um, regulatory approval, we brought on A-A-C-E-O who was perfect on paper, but not necessarily perfect for the culture within our company and his entire handpicked [00:18:00] team. Basically said, you need to make a change here. Um, so we did,
Michael Mitchel: so the people he brought on said, correct, gotta go.
Heather Callender-Potters: Correct? Yes. So, um, and there’s always growing pains. Some, some people who start early don’t make it to the end of the rainbow. Um, different skill base needed at different stages of businesses. And I, I well know that I guess from my training in terms of being a, a professional investor, um, you know, you need the right people in the right seats at the right time and, and over a period of time.
Um, and, and just bringing you fast forward to today, our CEO. His name is Chris Capello. Uh, started with Pharma Jet as an engineer about 11 years ago and he is an extraordinary talent and he is wonderful and he symbolizes everything that we stand for and frankly, he helped develop our current technology.
So, uh, his skill base in my experiences. It’s truly unmatched. [00:19:00] Um, and it’s been a, a really interesting process to be able to be on the inside as opposed to an outside investor looking in. Mm-hmm. And, and work with him, uh, consistently. And the other executives we have, um, I don’t wanna, um, leave them out of the equation ’cause they’re certainly very important and I can come to that in a minute.
Michael Mitchel: But, so, so you, you basically home grew your CEO. When was that decision made? Okay, we’re gonna do that and it’s gonna be him. And then how did that process look? I mean, how did you prepare him for that role?
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, we, there’s a, uh, it’s like the, the, the bread and then the stuff in between. So in the middle of our, our lifetime and development activities, um, I ended up, or we as a board ended up bringing in, um.
Someone who’d been working with us for about a year as kind of a coach. Uh, and he was a small investor to start, but, uh, his name [00:20:00] is Ron Lowy. And, uh, he came in as my co-chairman, eventually took the full title and role of chairman and CEO and over a period of time also added a number of people that he used to work with.
Um. He had, uh, been responsible for essentially big part of the roll up of what created Thermo Fisher Bioscience, an extraordinary medical device background, going all the way back to early days of GE MRI business before it was a big business. And, and that coaching’s been invaluable. So, uh, my. CFO who worked with Ron and two or three other companies together with my lawyer, head of marketing.
And then Chris and I were already part of Pharma Jett, uh, have worked consistently for a number of years, and that stickiness and glue and wisdom and older age and younger age, you know, has, has created or fostered, I think an [00:21:00] environment. Environment for not only growth, but high expectations, pushing the envelope and then rise to the occasion.
Michael Mitchel: Going back to the, the first CEO, I think there’s a, there’s something that, there’s some interesting, um, lessons to be learned as it were. How, how, when you look at how you interviewed that first person. Would you say, did you focus more on the functionality of the role of A CEO versus the cultural aspect, or, I mean, what would you have done differently for during that interview process or that selection process?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, I think probably we would’ve benefited by to, by making some additional reference calls to really understand. What it was like to work with this individual. Um, he actually came recommended by a board member who had worked with him. Some of the people that he handpicked to, to work in pharma. Jett from the outside had worked with him.
So by every indication it seemed to be a good fit. Uh, he had had experience in our [00:22:00] industry. He had had experience in pharmaceutical industry. But I think culturally in the end, it wasn’t the perfect fit. And I, I don’t really wanna cast judgment on whether or not it was, um, frustration in, in, in dealing with an early stage business versus something that had all of the resources and tools of a more developed.
I think there could be some of that, but it just ended up being that it, it was, um. People from the inside saying a change needs to be made. And then we made that change. Um, and none, none of that is, is with Ill intention. It was only for the better good of Pharma Jett. I think that, yeah, that, you know, the rule of thumb has always been in place.
We want the best people right time, right place, right seats, and um. A lot of times businesses like ours, you still have a founder who’s kind of in [00:23:00] control. Typically, it’s the founder that goes away, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but uh, I’d say we, we had the opportunity to see different skill bases at different times, and he had some extraordinary skills, but it, it, it wasn’t a fit for the future leadership of the company at the time.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah, I’m not so much focused on the individual. I just like, from a process perspective, what was learned. I mean, let’s say, let’s face it, and you know, our culture, we celebrate our wins very well. But I think that learning from bad calls is something that’s not discussed as much as it should be. ’cause we all make bad calls.
That’s not the issue. Issue is what did you learn from that, right? Mm-hmm. So that, that’s what I found really interesting about that. But you, you mentioned, you know, you got from a board member, so as. Uh, you are a board member. Um, how many boards are you currently on or, and or have you served on over the last few years?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, it’s hard ’cause I haven’t added them all up, you know, from my career. You know, the typical thing is as an outsider [00:24:00] investor and you know, you make the investment, you sit on the board. Um, there’s a handful of companies that I spend some time on. The vast majority of which are related to my capital structure.
So if you keep in mind that I’ve raised money from high net worth and family office investors, I know my shareholders well, and they’re all off doing really interesting things, and from time to time they reach out and tell me about that or ask for help. And so in a couple circumstances, uh, as a result of the relationship and the investment relationship with Firma Jett, they’ve said, would you join our board and help us out?
And then I think once an investor, always an investor. Um, you know, I have a personal investment portfolio that includes more than just pharma jet, although Pharma Jet is my priority where I spend the vast, vast majority of my time. But where I feel like there’s a fit where I can add some value. ’cause I’m not necessarily an expert in a field.
Uh, despite that I know a lot about, you know, med tech and life science and healthcare and, and certain [00:25:00] other things. Uh, you know, then I’m, I’m happy and willing to try and lend a, a hand.
Michael Mitchel: Okay. Um, as a board member, when you’re on a selection committee, what do you look for in a, in a, an executive? A CEO or CFO, whatever that role is.
Heather Callender-Potters: I would say, um, no whiners allowed in resilience. Uh, it depends on the stage of the company for sure. Right. Uh, most of my career has been spent in early stage, um, businesses. Not seed, but, but early stage. And it can be really hard, can be a, a real grind. And I would say, um. Maybe with one exception in my entire career, it never goes according to plan.
Michael Mitchel: Um,
Heather Callender-Potters: right. So you give us your best view, your crystal ball, and then adjust that as you go. And frankly, with the pace of change in the world right now and technology in the last decade, for sure, if not almost two decades, if [00:26:00] you’re not constantly adjusting and readjusting and checking and looking in front of you and looking behind you, um, you’re, you’re quickly going to be affected by something that might come out of left field.
So resiliency. Uh, to, to accommodate all those changes that are, that are gonna happen. Um, and certainly, uh, in situations of force, majeure really important, right? Because some people go through shell shock of, oh my gosh, you know, the sky’s falling. And, um, it’s important to be able to, to. Not be overly reactionary from an emotional standpoint, but very immediately reactionary to what are you gonna do about it?
Michael Mitchel: How, how have you seen the candidate profiles change over the last five or seven years? Or have they,
Heather Callender-Potters: um, you know, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be honest here and say. I don’t think I know everything about everything and I’ve not been the primary person [00:27:00] recruiting on behalf of Pharma Jet. ’cause we’re searching for hardcore engineers and scale up people right now at, at our stage of development.
And I’m not an engineer,
Michael Mitchel: well, I guess not so much for Pharma Jet, but from your view as a board member on
Heather Callender-Potters: Yeah, but I, I have seen a few searches and, and, um, participated in interviews and things like that. I would say that, um. There are people out there that are being very, very careful and selective because they don’t want it to be just a temporary thing.
Michael Mitchel: Mm-hmm.
Heather Callender-Potters: Historically, you know, reading the press about how many jobs, um, you know, like my children who are young adults will have in their lifetimes, what is it something like 19, I mean, is is unfathomable for me and I’m 55. So, um, the fact that. That people do switch their careers all the time isn’t a good thing for us, right?
We want that consistency and repository of knowledge, [00:28:00] and yet the higher you get in terms of the skill base of someone, I think that most of those people also don’t wanna make a mistake. Um, they really wanna find a, a good place to land and, and a, something that they believe in, that they’re excited about and where they can make a real contribution.
Um, and, and then probably in, in many cases, as you move from kind of early stage to that, you know, kind of on fire stage. Hopefully then some upside associated with what will be a lot of hard work. I think people have joined pharma jet more specifically in a very thoughtful way, um, in certain other healthcare worlds because our, our, our industry is glacial.
It’s the same thing. Mm-hmm.
Michael Mitchel: Tech
Heather Callender-Potters: world, not so much. I, I see that there’s more job hopping in, in just kind of pure tech place.
Michael Mitchel: It is jaw dropping. Um, on, on the dates when you see how quickly people make, are [00:29:00] making changes and it, it’s something that we we’re always as, as a search firm cognizant of, I mean, we’ve been doing this for 20 years, so it’s something we always pay close attention to.
So if you’re moving around a lot, we typically probably didn’t really look to engage with that candidate too closely, but it’s just becoming inescapable. I mean, we’re seeing people with their resumes, putting on their resumes that they worked one place for 4, 6, 8 months. And, and then, and that was like four jobs ago.
Within three and a half years. And I don’t understand how this keeps happening, who’s hiring these people?
Heather Callender-Potters: Mm-hmm. I, I, I personally would, would have that bias of, huh? Wonder how long they’re gonna last. Um, now I think that there are. Are reasons that are driving some of, you know, those trends, which is really unfortunate.
Certain, again, going back to, to to tech, but certain kind of verticals that are on fire and there’s not enough [00:30:00] people to fill the seats or, or you need the most extraordinary talent. Uh, you buy them. And sometimes that works out and sometimes that doesn’t work out. But I, I think it is un an unfortunate trend.
So irresponsible actually to just kind of jump in, jump out and think that that’s okay because, um, it might provide you with a glimpse of what you might wanna do, but it, it certainly doesn’t make a contribution given how long it takes a company to kind of train somebody up and really get some value associated with that person.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah, I mean, ’cause I, I just think that your first couple months you’re still figuring how to use the email. Right. Who do I talk to about blah, blah, blah. And by the time they can before people, you can even get registered in the company directory if you’re already moved on. The next thing, I just dunno how these companies are hiring these people and it’s, it’s not the outliers, it’s becoming more and more common.
Um, I, I just scratched my head. I don’t know where things are gonna look like from a talent perspective in five years. [00:31:00] Um, you, you’re getting this, this generation, this doesn’t, this isn’t me sound like my parents, right. This isn’t these crazy kids come and comment. I, because I’m seeing it with the older workforce as well.
You know, you look at, if you look at resumes in the last five or seven years, you get someone over three years, you know, that’s pretty good. It’s not a, it’s not. Complete rule, but it’s becoming more and more common. I just, I don’t know where it’s gonna go. At what point do the employers push back and say, you need to, you know, the workforce needs to spend at least three years in one place before you can leave?
I, I don’t know.
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, when you think that, um, you know, there used to be retention bonuses that made a big difference. Um, you know, the, the, the question today is probably also. Uh, that stickiness factor associated with where do you live just in the last 12 to 18 months of there being virtually no housing stock?
No affordable place to live is a deeply [00:32:00] concerning, uh. Especially for younger people. Yeah. So, um, maybe it’s about alignment and I don’t know how quickly we can get there. Um, but it’s probably a combination of reasons that’s going to inspire someone to stay where they are. And, and, you know, it’s, it’s, um, I, I personally just think it’s an unfortunate trend and I don’t think you see that outside the United States.
No. Very, very different.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah, it’s very different. But also, I mean, there are voices I’ll say to, to argument, well, the employer has to treat the employee better to make, to make them stay around. Which, okay, that’s a valid discussion point. Let’s have that conversation. But four months, six, eight months, that’s not long enough.
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, if they only knew how hard it is to meet payroll and run things and pay for things, and, you know, life’s expensive for them, but life’s expensive for a company.
Michael Mitchel: Yeah. Um, you know, what advice would you, would you give to someone who’s [00:33:00] looking to being a first time board member?
Heather Callender-Potters: Um, you know, it’s, it’s more than a trend, uh, particularly for women.
And, um, I think, you know, advice is, is general for, for whether or not it’s a, a man or a woman, but pick something where you feel like you can add some value and, uh. It’s, it’s important to have the self-confidence to represent your view as your own, but also on behalf of what you think the shareholders might want you to care about, but in your own way.
Uh, it’s. It shouldn’t be driven by ego. You shouldn’t say something just to say it, to think that it, it makes you like one of the club. Not that I’m advocating that boards become, um, full of adversarial, controversial discussions, but I think [00:34:00] that the reason why somebody’s supposed to show up and listen and participate is because.
They’ve been hand selected for a skill base where they might be able to have some really thoughtful insights and help that business in whatever way that is. So, um, don’t over promise and under deliver. And I also think you have to take your kind of sense of responsibility, uh, you know, to the next level, which is, it’s not just about showing up at the quarterly meetings.
Right. Yeah. It’s about paying attention anytime you’re asked and or when you’re not asked to try and, and add some value. And if you do a good job, then typically somebody says, Hey, I have this other board position, would you be interested? Uh, and, and then typically if you have a lot of experience, that’s when you have.
Or, and or skills. You have the opportunity to join a public board. That’s a very different thing and it comes with all kinds of fiduciary [00:35:00] responsibilities and liability and, you know, et cetera. That’s a magnitude, uh, a lot number order of magnitude higher.
Michael Mitchel: There was a conference I attended in, in 2019, kind that system like a whole.
Lifetime ago already, doesn’t it? Um, and it was, um, it, it was about the whole, the whole point of the, of the, the conference was getting more women on boards and they talk about different issues. Um, the one thing they didn’t talk about was, why do you wanna be on the board? Right? It’s like, what do you feel you’re gonna contribute to the organization?
Um, and I understand they were trying to have a more of a larger conversation about changing the, the percentages of men, you know, women, the lack of women on the boards. But I think also that’s an important conversation that wasn’t happening because I think a lot of people like to what you’re saying, it’s not about ego.
I think some people think, well, that’s the next lo, next logical step in my career for whatever reason. But no one stops to think about why. And once you, once you’ve solved that why, then I [00:36:00] think that will better help you align with the right fit on what board to be on. Is there anything else you’d, you know, any other, um, uh, advice or or perspective you’d like to offer to, um, executives or, or soon to be board members?
Heather Callender-Potters: Well, I guess if we’re all lucky enough to do what we love. And be able to do also what we’re good at. I think that’s the unique combination. You know, do do more of what you’re good at and, and keep doing that because I think that that ends up, um, taking you to a place where I. You have the opportunity to, to make a profound contribution, whatever organization, whether or not you started it or you just worked there, or you’re on the board.
And, um, it’s practice, practice, practice. And then I also think there’s a rule of thumb of 80% of everything is showing up, show up and participate, and the rest is really, really hard work. Mm-hmm. So anybody out there that you, you look at and you admire, or you think, you know, life’s pretty easy, I can guarantee you that whatever [00:37:00] they, they do or they’ve done in their careers hasn’t been easy.
Because if they make it easy, they make it look easy. They make it look, look perfect. It took a lot of hard work, right? Yeah. So, so don’t be misguided by, by somebody else’s, you know, success. Um, and, and the therefore don’t pretend right. You know, know what you’re good at and what you’re not good at. And, and takes a group of people typically to make something very successful.
Michael Mitchel: And finally, my, my last question is. You know, this could be a high school college, whenever, what’s the worst job you’ve ever had, and what was the, the lasting positive impact it, it had on you in your career?
Heather Callender-Potters: Hmm. I had a really great experience. It was awful experience, but it was really great experience in between years of business school and instead of taking the, the internship.
I was gonna be good at, um, I took one that, that I thought sounded a little more glamorous or had the pizazz and I was, spent some time with a, [00:38:00] a strategic consultancy company and the word strategic, uh, I didn’t understand that my job in the summer was to, uh, try and do hardcore statistical analysis of, of certain market trends.
And not only was it boring, but I’ll tell you I’m not a statistician. And so it was a real lesson in, oh, learning what you don’t want to do or what you’re not good at. Uh, and that, uh, will, will forever be with me. You know, this experience is of, oh boy, I don’t want that job. It doesn’t matter when you start, you know, if you’re 15 and mowing lawns, which I did.
Yeah. Um, all the way up through. Through some of those formative experiences where you’re in over your head for sure.
Michael Mitchel: Nice. Well, um, Heather, I definitely appreciate your time and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation and, um, thanks so much for, for being on the CXO Conversations podcast. Oh,
Heather Callender-Potters: Michael, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for the [00:39:00] opportunity.
Michael Mitchel: No problem. And, uh, for everyone who’s joining us, um, thanks. Uh, check us out on your favorite, uh, podcast platform, um, and you can follow me on Twitter at m Mitchell Winnel Mitchell at 52 80. Um, thanks for joining us. Thanks, Heather. Cheers.
Heather Callender-Potters: You take care.
Michael Mitchel: Bye-bye.
All right. I’m gonna kick it.
Today I am talking with Heather Potters, a fascinating executive who started her career by bringing access to capital to Poland right after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Real traveler, investor, co-founder, board member, and more. Heather is the co-founder of Pharma Jett, and serves on several boards after earning her MBA from Morton, Heather leveraged her childhood [00:40:00] experiences of living in Chile.
And went to Poland just after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Today we’re gonna talk about starting a company and handing off to a CEO, who was homegrown and her perspective on executives from the boardroom. Thanks for joining us today. Heather, please, uh, do us a favor, share an interesting fact about yourself, uh, to the listeners.
Um, goodness. An surpris question, I guess. Um, hobby of mine, uh, from way back when I learned to fly when I was, uh, 16. And, uh, any particular, uh, aircraft? I learned on a Cessna one 40 tail dragger, and it was a bit of a family thing where, um, every kid got the opportunity to learn. And my uncle is a Hall of Fame pilot.
Um, so as, as, uh, it went, it was kind of like, if you can fly this, you can fly anything. My fantasy was always you got a pilot’s license and collect and get a warbird, an old vintage, uh, warbird, or an old Stetson or something like that. You know, something you actually can’t fly.[00:41:00]
Well, I apparently, like boats are expensive, so are airplanes, so I don’t have one of those. Um, so Kenny, what’s interesting is that you, you have, you have childhood years growing up in South America. Um, how long did that, was that for, and how do you feel that influenced you as a young adult in business?
Well, I, I wouldn’t say I, I grew up there. I I definitely spent time. Um, I, I lived when I was, um, 14, almost 15 years old for, for summer in Chile. Studied abroad in Spain, um, spent time traveling in, in South America as a kid. And, and I have to say that, that in combination with my parents who were active libertarians, Paul Harris Fellows, um, we had a very significant international exposure and upbringing.
Whether or not we went someplace or someone came to stay with us, but at a time in the world where there wasn’t very much news, there certainly wasn’t any online media. Um, you know, the [00:42:00] rest of the world’s been struggling for a long time, uh, different countries for different reasons. And I think it just added a, uh, an amazing perspective about how large the world is.
Um. That there are conflicts, not everything goes well. And, and that certain economies have a basket of goods, you know, and you get to do what you do with that basket of goods. So it, it was transformative and it actually propelled me to make sure that everything I studied was in, had that international bent to it.
Do you feel that, um, having that in that international experience so young really had changed your perspective on business? I’m not saying that you knew it at the time, but do you think it made you more rounded, more self-confident as a young adult? Um, I, I think being able to have an experience as a young person in another place where you can’t just pick up and go home makes you more resourceful.
Um, it takes a while, you know, for us all to, to reach that state of wisdom where we all know that we don’t know everything, you know, as little kids, we [00:43:00] feel like we do. Um, but it, it, it certainly has. Positively affected my ability to interact in a really, um, responsible way. It’s so easy for people to judge, right?
But, but if you take a moment to understand the perspective that someone else has, which could be wildly different than your own. I think it forms a better basis for a conversation and then trying to accomplish whatever’s at hand. Um, whether or not that’s just an exchange of buying something from someone or, or a negotiation or, or frankly, a, a whole partnership that’s got a legal structure together.
So after earning your MBA, you went to Poland. Why Poland? Well, um, I have a little bit of that wonder, lust and push the envelope, um, in the international upbringing. So when the wall came down, um, I was in between years of business school and I had the opportunity to [00:44:00] travel. Um, Western Europe to Eastern Europe.
So it was a big loop. Um, but it took me through and West Germany, Poland, chuckle Slovakia. And it was really remarkable because the Polish people, um, you know, have had a, a history where every few hundred years somebody comes through and tries to take Poland. It’s got some, some great assets, you know, big agricultural, uh, base, two more modern ports in between east and west.
And I think I was really struck with the, the, um. You know, kind of the need that those people had to move from being part of the Soviet Union into an independent country. I thought in the back of my mind, wouldn’t it be great if I could do something? And, um, the year rolled around, um, one of the professors at my school was working on a brand new concept of privatization and there was a little advertisement about whether or not anybody might want to go and, and help with that.
So, um, I was [00:45:00] actually supposed to move to Australia and take a job with Proctor and Gamble, but instead I, uh, went to Poland and my assignment was to be the first foreigner, uh, on the ground in what was an experiment that was created by President Bush, Sr. Together with the Chairman of Bear Stearns and Dylan Reed mm-hmm.
To create the SEED Act, which ultimately broke free US congressional funding to be put in closed end, uh, bonafide private equity structures to help assist these countries with a transformation from basically almost no private sector to what you see today, which is an abundance of, of and predominant private sector activity.
So what were those early years like? Grungy? Uh, so, uh, because of the lack of in infrastructure, it took 22 days to wire money because there were no retail banks and, and banking was restricted. Um, I lived [00:46:00] without heat and water intermittently during the first year, not because there wasn’t heat and water, but because the pipes were corroded, uh, or they just, uh, turned the water off and dig up the street and fix them.
Uh, it was. It was really, uh, a remarkable and fast transformation finding that people were on every street corner selling something. Um, and inflation peaked at something like 89%, and a business started every day. Visibly you could see something start every single day and, and pretty quickly within the. I would say the first three years of time things started to normalize and, you know, there was some standard infrastructure.
Uh, we helped create the first retail bank, as an example, a bit missionary, but we made a really nice return. Um, and, and you could start to see the beginnings of what really might happen. Uh, not only in Poland, but in other central Eastern European countries. You know, [00:47:00] in the mid nineties, my, um, my wife had an opportunity for, to be a Fulbright scholar in, um, Albania for a year.
And we looked at it really closely. And then one of the things we noticed was there’s only power. On in the Capitol for four hours a day. And I thought, I thought it was gonna be adventurous, but I had a golden lab that I wouldn’t leave behind. So we ultimately, I think because of the dog, we didn’t go and we were always joking that, you know what, the first thing they do when there’s a revolt is a hang of foreigners.
Um, like six, eight months later, there was a coup in the capital. So I guess that wasn’t quite a, it was just been when, it would just been really interesting years to be in Eastern Europe, Europe. In the nineties, have you been back to Poland since? Um, I have, uh, for a, a semi family wedding, so my, my adoptive Polish family, if you will.
Yeah. Um, a woman who helped me raise my children, her daughter’s like my daughter. So the last time I was back was four years ago. And the transformation still continues, you [00:48:00] know, absolutely stunning. But, you know, to, to address your comment, the further south and east in the central and eastern European.
Block of countries that you went, the harder it was and the worse off those countries were. Yeah, so Albania would’ve been, um, a tough go. Poland was kind of the darling of the fall of the wall, so you had the Polish Pope in place. In the Vatican, you had, uh, Le Ensa standing at the top of the, the, you know, shipyard waving his solidarity flag.
Um, it was the industrial workhorse for much of the Soviet Union, so a lot of great assets, and then a whole number of people that remembered what it was like to do private business. Prior to World War ii, the Polish stock Exchange was one of the three most powerful stock exchanges in in Europe. And so it, it really had the basis for, [00:49:00] um, success in comparison to some of the other countries.
So, I mean, we’re gonna digress a little bit, but, um, we’ve been to Hungary a couple times. I don’t know if you made to Hungry yet, but they have a, a place called Memento Park. And when, you know, when the communists collapsed. They save some of the statues and it’s in one park in the suburbs out on the edge of the of, um, uh, Budapest.
It, it is pretty interesting. Yeah, so I, I, I’d love Eastern Europe. I love the films, beautiful places and very different cultures, even though it all seems like it’s in the same place. And, and, um, some of the architecture. Um, in places like Hungary and, and Budapest and Prague, you know, it’s just off the charts.
World class in, in Poland, um, Hitler actually destroyed Warsaw and so it’s mostly been rebuilt, but yeah, extraordinary history for history busts out there. So, moving to current times. Um, can you, Bri, can you briefly introduce Pharma Jet? Sure. So, um, after three closed end [00:50:00] funds, um, ultimately covering a region of up to 18 countries, I decided that I didn’t wanna spend my whole adult life, uh, living in Warsaw.
And, and not that Warsaw is a bad place, it’s just that I don’t have any Polish history. And, um, I began investing in some other things to diversify my way out of Warsaw. One of those, uh, things was the co-founding of Pharma Jett and Pharma Jett is a needle free jet injection technology, and that’s a fancy term for saying that we’re able to deliver a fluid injection into the body, alternative to standard needles.
Mm-hmm. And when we started, um, and actually it was a business that my mother and I co-founded. Uh, we, we didn’t fess up in the early days ’cause it was two completely unqualified ladies trying to go off and conquer the world of immunization through needle free. Um, but when we started, we very intentionally focused on the vaccine world.
In part because there was horrific needle reuse, pass along [00:51:00] disease, and there needed to be a better solution. So the World Health Organization actually had a call to action, you know, can someone please develop a needle free technology for that purpose? And then secondly, um, immunization is global. We all share the disease burden.
And today we’re in the middle of a. Prime example, our pandemic for COVID, where that’s very, very obvious. But generally, the world has come to a conclusion over time that if you don’t consistently immunize for certain core disease indications, um, the risk is particularly if you’re in a lower middle income country, that you will get sick and be permanently affected.
So measles as an example. Um, can cause blindness and deafness and severe fevers and death. Uh, it’s, uh, 95% contagious. So in other words, if you’re not immunized from measles, you get measles, polio causes paralysis. Um, so, so at any rate. The, [00:52:00] the birth cohort times the number of vaccines and market growing in perpetuity with a need for a safer, better solution.
And then the crown jewel really is what carries us on even further today, the ability to potentially make vaccines work better. We saw glimmers in our preclinical meaning animal studies of bigger, better, faster, longer, stronger immune responses. And we thought, oh boy, if that can work out, that would be extraordinary.
Uh, so over time our, our technology’s been developed in two platforms and we have claims for existing vaccines. We are working on a number of novel vaccines. We have 140 development programs with nearly 60 partners globally. Um, and in many, many, many cases. We make vaccines work better, and either we can reduce the, the dose by moving from the muscle to the skin.
So functionally, about 80% less is the same in immune response. Mm-hmm. Or in the case of things like messenger, RNA [00:53:00] and DNA, vaccines, which are now kind of household names thanks to COVID, um, we typically see a, a severalfold higher immune response versus needles. So the, the ability to play a role in bringing a number.
Of developments forward that might never have come about because they don’t work with needles very well or frankly, being able to accelerate, um, kinda cracking the code for a, a, a virus or, or a disease indication like cancer and being able to manufacture something that can, can help. Um. Address that, fix that, um, is really, you know, what we focus on every day.
It’s, it’s an exciting future for Pharma Jett. So, pharma, pharma, Jett’s doing some COVID collaboration in India. And my, I guess what I was wondering is that the nature. Uh, pharma biotech being the international focus, or is that an influence from your global, um, perspective? I think it’s a [00:54:00] combination of things.
Um, so because we’ve been at this for a while, you know, we show up in debut data at various conferences and, and that’s how we’ve been able to accumulate that and through networking our various partners. We have an easy approach to kind of try it. You’ll like it. If our devices are helpful to the pharmaceutical company in, in developing their products, we ultimately enter into a a licensing arrangement.
The pockets of activity around vaccine development are not limited to the United States. Certain large countries over time had vaccine capability to address, you know, their own domestic needs. Brazil would be a great example, or Indonesia. Uh. Um, Europe, us, but, uh, increasingly over time the powerhouses of vaccine development and, and certainly manufacturing, um, have become India and then eventually China.
While China domestically supplies most of its product, um, India supplies [00:55:00] lots of vaccines globally, lots of drugs and, and vaccines globally. So we’re fortunate enough to be able to be part of an established India pharma relationship. Where they’re utilizing our intradermal platform for advancement and, um, hopefully approval in short order mm-hmm.
Of their COVID vaccine. You, you mentioned starting Farm Jet with your mom. What advice would you give to somebody who’s looking to start a company with a family member? Um, make sure that it’s. It’s, uh, a basis of trust and honesty and that there’s some rationale for, for why there’s a skill base there.
You know, my, my parents, um, my, my entire family in most part have healthcare, um, you know, professions and degrees. And so, uh, my mother was one of those people. And so the combination of science and business and finance was very helpful to us at an early stage. [00:56:00] But we always knew that we wanted to find people that were more capable, um, skilled in medical device.
Activities than we were to help us to build this business. So that was the plan from the early days and still continues to be that plan. My mother’s been retired for a good number of years, but, um, she would say exactly the same thing and, and yet the basis of trust and the, the vision that we had and the commitment that we had, um, was already there before we started Farm Jet.
You know, she’s, she’s kinda like my best friend. We, we share a lot of, of everything, both good and bad. Yeah. Previously you’ve mentioned that the plan was always to bring on a CEO. Um, you know, I, I guess what was the, the experience like when the day came to turn over the keys? Um, we’ve actually done it, I guess, three times.
Uh, so the first time, yeah, the first time you’d let go. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about product life cycles and or company life cycles, [00:57:00] right? You, you get to a certain inflection point. Um. Where you certainly require more sophistication, but in, in med tech, the development stage is lots of testing and tweaking and regulatory before you’re ever able to get to a place where you can commercialize something.
So just before our first, um, regulatory approval, we brought on A-A-C-E-O who was perfect on paper, but not necessarily perfect for the culture within our company and his entire handpicked team. Basically said, you need to make a change here. Um, so we did, so the people he brought on said, correct, gotta go.
Correct? Yes. So, um, and there’s always growing pains. Some, some people who start early don’t make it to the end of the rainbow. Um, different skill base needed at different stages of businesses. And I, I well know that I guess from my training in terms of being a, a professional investor, um, you know, you need the right people [00:58:00] in the right seats at the right time and, and over a period of time.
Um, and, and just bringing you fast forward to today, our CEO. His name is Chris Capello. Uh, started with Pharma Jet as an engineer about 11 years ago and he is an extraordinary talent and he is wonderful and he symbolizes everything that we stand for and frankly, he helped develop our current technology.
So, uh, his skill base in my experiences. It’s truly unmatched. Um, and it’s been a, a really interesting process to be able to be on the inside as opposed to an outside investor looking in. Mm-hmm. And, and work with him, uh, consistently. And the other executives we have, um, I don’t wanna, um, leave them out of the equation ’cause they’re certainly very important and I can come to that in a minute.
But, so, so you, you basically home grew your CEO. When was that decision made? Okay, we’re gonna do that and it’s gonna be [00:59:00] him. And then how did that process look? I mean, how did you prepare him for that role? Well, we, there’s a, uh, it’s like the, the, the bread and then the stuff in between. So in the middle of our, our lifetime and development activities, um, I ended up, or we as a board ended up bringing in, um.
Someone who’d been working with us for about a year as kind of a coach. Uh, and he was a small investor to start, but, uh, his name is Ron Lowy. And, uh, he came in as my co-chairman, eventually took the full title and role of chairman and CEO and over a period of time also added a number of people that he used to work with.
Um. He had, uh, been responsible for essentially big part of the roll up of what created Thermo Fisher Bioscience, an extraordinary medical device background, going all the way back to early days of GE MRI business before [01:00:00] it was a big business. And, and that coaching’s been invaluable. So, uh, my. CFO who worked with Ron and two or three other companies together with my lawyer, head of marketing.
And then Chris and I were already part of Pharma Jett, uh, have worked consistently for a number of years, and that stickiness and glue and wisdom and older age and younger age, you know, has, has created or fostered, I think an environment. Environment for not only growth, but high expectations, pushing the envelope and then rise to the occasion.
Going back to the, the first CEO, I think there’s a, there’s something that, there’s some interesting, um, lessons to be learned as it were. How, how, when you look at how you interviewed that first person. Would you say, did you focus more on the functionality of the role of A CEO versus the cultural aspect, or, I mean, what would you have done differently for during that interview process [01:01:00] or that selection process?
Um, I think probably we would’ve benefited by to, by making some additional reference calls to really understand. What it was like to work with this individual. Um, he actually came recommended by a board member who had worked with him. Some of the people that he handpicked to, to work in pharma. Jett from the outside had worked with him.
So by every indication it seemed to be a good fit. Uh, he had had experience in our industry. He had had experience in pharmaceutical industry. But I think culturally in the end, it wasn’t the perfect fit. And I, I don’t really wanna cast judgment on whether or not it was, um, frustration in, in, in dealing with an early stage business versus something that had all of the resources and tools of a more developed.
I think there could be some of that, but it just ended up being that [01:02:00] it, it was, um. People from the inside saying a change needs to be made. And then we made that change. Um, and none, none of that is, is with Ill intention. It was only for the better good of Pharma Jett. I think that, yeah, that, you know, the rule of thumb has always been in place.
We want the best people right time, right place, right seats, and um. A lot of times businesses like ours, you still have a founder who’s kind of in control. Typically, it’s the founder that goes away, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but uh, I’d say we, we had the opportunity to see different skill bases at different times, and he had some extraordinary skills, but it, it, it wasn’t a fit for the future leadership of the company at the time.
Yeah, I’m not so much focused on the individual. I just like, from a process perspective, what was learned. I mean, let’s say, let’s face it, and you know, our culture, we celebrate our wins very well. But [01:03:00] I think that learning from bad calls is something that’s not discussed as much as it should be. ’cause we all make bad calls.
That’s not the issue. Issue is what did you learn from that, right? Mm-hmm. So that, that’s what I found really interesting about that. But you, you mentioned, you know, you got from a board member, so as. Uh, you are a board member. Um, how many boards are you currently on or, and or have you served on over the last few years?
Um, it’s hard ’cause I haven’t added them all up, you know, from my career. You know, the typical thing is as an outsider investor and you know, you make the investment, you sit on the board. Um, there’s a handful of companies that I spend some time on. The vast majority of which are related to my capital structure.
So if you keep in mind that I’ve raised money from high net worth and family office investors, I know my shareholders well, and they’re all off doing really interesting things, and from time to time they reach out and tell me about that or ask for help. And so in a couple circumstances, uh, as a result of [01:04:00] the relationship and the investment relationship with Firma Jett, they’ve said, would you join our board and help us out?
And then I think once an investor, always an investor. Um, you know, I have a personal investment portfolio that includes more than just pharma jet, although Pharma Jet is my priority where I spend the vast, vast majority of my time. But where I feel like there’s a fit where I can add some value. ’cause I’m not necessarily an expert in a field.
Uh, despite that I know a lot about, you know, med tech and life science and healthcare and, and certain other things. Uh, you know, then I’m, I’m happy and willing to try and lend a, a hand. Okay. Um, as a board member, when you’re on a selection committee, what do you look for in a, in a, an executive? A CEO or CFO, whatever that role is.
I would say, um, no whiners allowed in resilience. Uh, it depends on the stage of the company for sure. Right. Uh, most of my career has been spent in early stage, [01:05:00] um, businesses. Not seed, but, but early stage. And it can be really hard, can be a, a real grind. And I would say, um. Maybe with one exception in my entire career, it never goes according to plan.
Um, right. So you give us your best view, your crystal ball, and then adjust that as you go. And frankly, with the pace of change in the world right now and technology in the last decade, for sure, if not almost two decades, if you’re not constantly adjusting and readjusting and checking and looking in front of you and looking behind you, um, you’re, you’re quickly going to be affected by something that might come out of left field.
So resiliency. Uh, to, to accommodate all those changes that are, that are gonna happen. Um, and certainly, uh, in situations of force, majeure really important, right? Because some people go through shell shock of, [01:06:00] oh my gosh, you know, the sky’s falling. And, um, it’s important to be able to, to. Not be overly reactionary from an emotional standpoint, but very immediately reactionary to what are you gonna do about it?
How, how have you seen the candidate profiles change over the last five or seven years? Or have they, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be honest here and say. I don’t think I know everything about everything and I’ve not been the primary person recruiting on behalf of Pharma Jet. ’cause we’re searching for hardcore engineers and scale up people right now at, at our stage of development.
And I’m not an engineer, well, I guess not so much for Pharma Jet, but from your view as a board member on Yeah, but I, I have seen a few searches and, and, um, participated in interviews and things like that. I would say that, um. There are people out there that are being very, very careful and selective because they don’t want it to be just a temporary [01:07:00] thing.
Mm-hmm. Historically, you know, reading the press about how many jobs, um, you know, like my children who are young adults will have in their lifetimes, what is it something like 19, I mean, is is unfathomable for me and I’m 55. So, um, the fact that. That people do switch their careers all the time isn’t a good thing for us, right?
We want that consistency and repository of knowledge, and yet the higher you get in terms of the skill base of someone, I think that most of those people also don’t wanna make a mistake. Um, they really wanna find a, a good place to land and, and a, something that they believe in, that they’re excited about and where they can make a real contribution.
Um, and, and then probably in, in many cases, as you move from kind of early stage to that, you know, kind of on fire stage. [01:08:00] Hopefully then some upside associated with what will be a lot of hard work. I think people have joined pharma jet more specifically in a very thoughtful way, um, in certain other healthcare worlds because our, our, our industry is glacial.
It’s the same thing. Mm-hmm. Tech world, not so much. I, I see that there’s more job hopping in, in just kind of pure tech place. It is jaw dropping. Um, on, on the dates when you see how quickly people make, are making changes and it, it’s something that we we’re always as, as a search firm cognizant of, I mean, we’ve been doing this for 20 years, so it’s something we always pay close attention to.
So if you’re moving around a lot, we typically probably didn’t really look to engage with that candidate too closely, but it’s just becoming inescapable. I mean, we’re seeing people with their resumes, putting on their resumes that they worked one place for 4, 6, 8 months. And, and then, and that was like four jobs [01:09:00] ago.
Within three and a half years. And I don’t understand how this keeps happening, who’s hiring these people? Mm-hmm. I, I, I personally would, would have that bias of, huh? Wonder how long they’re gonna last. Um, now I think that there are. Are reasons that are driving some of, you know, those trends, which is really unfortunate.
Certain, again, going back to, to to tech, but certain kind of verticals that are on fire and there’s not enough people to fill the seats or, or you need the most extraordinary talent. Uh, you buy them. And sometimes that works out and sometimes that doesn’t work out. But I, I think it is un an unfortunate trend.
So irresponsible actually to just kind of jump in, jump out and think that that’s okay because, um, it might provide you with a glimpse of what you might wanna do, but it, it certainly doesn’t make a contribution given how long it takes a company to kind of train somebody up and really [01:10:00] get some value associated with that person.
Yeah, I mean, ’cause I, I just think that your first couple months you’re still figuring how to use the email. Right. Who do I talk to about blah, blah, blah. And by the time they can before people, you can even get registered in the company directory if you’re already moved on. The next thing, I just dunno how these companies are hiring these people and it’s, it’s not the outliers, it’s becoming more and more common.
Um, I, I just scratched my head. I don’t know where things are gonna look like from a talent perspective in five years. Um, you, you’re getting this, this generation, this doesn’t, this isn’t me sound like my parents, right. This isn’t these crazy kids come and comment. I, because I’m seeing it with the older workforce as well.
You know, you look at, if you look at resumes in the last five or seven years, you get someone over three years, you know, that’s pretty good. It’s not a, it’s not. Complete rule, but it’s becoming more and more common. I just, I don’t know where it’s gonna go. At what point do the employers push back and say, [01:11:00] you need to, you know, the workforce needs to spend at least three years in one place before you can leave?
I, I don’t know. Well, when you think that, um, you know, there used to be retention bonuses that made a big difference. Um, you know, the, the, the question today is probably also. Uh, that stickiness factor associated with where do you live just in the last 12 to 18 months of there being virtually no housing stock?
No affordable place to live is a deeply concerning, uh. Especially for younger people. Yeah. So, um, maybe it’s about alignment and I don’t know how quickly we can get there. Um, but it’s probably a combination of reasons that’s going to inspire someone to stay where they are. And, and, you know, it’s, it’s, um, I, I personally just think it’s an unfortunate trend and I don’t think you see that outside the United States.
No. Very, very different. Yeah, it’s very different. But also, I mean, there [01:12:00] are voices I’ll say to, to argument, well, the employer has to treat the employee better to make, to make them stay around. Which, okay, that’s a valid discussion point. Let’s have that conversation. But four months, six, eight months, that’s not long enough.
Well, if they only knew how hard it is to meet payroll and run things and pay for things, and, you know, life’s expensive for them, but life’s expensive for a company. Yeah. Um, you know, what advice would you, would you give to someone who’s looking to being a first time board member? Um, you know, it’s, it’s more than a trend, uh, particularly for women.
And, um, I think, you know, advice is, is general for, for whether or not it’s a, a man or a woman, but pick something where you feel like you can add some value and, uh. It’s, it’s important to have the self-confidence to represent [01:13:00] your view as your own, but also on behalf of what you think the shareholders might want you to care about, but in your own way.
Uh, it’s. It shouldn’t be driven by ego. You shouldn’t say something just to say it, to think that it, it makes you like one of the club. Not that I’m advocating that boards become, um, full of adversarial, controversial discussions, but I think that the reason why somebody’s supposed to show up and listen and participate is because.
They’ve been hand selected for a skill base where they might be able to have some really thoughtful insights and help that business in whatever way that is. So, um, don’t over promise and under deliver. And I also think you have to take your kind of sense of responsibility, uh, you know, to the next level, which is, it’s not [01:14:00] just about showing up at the quarterly meetings.
Right. Yeah. It’s about paying attention anytime you’re asked and or when you’re not asked to try and, and add some value. And if you do a good job, then typically somebody says, Hey, I have this other board position, would you be interested? Uh, and, and then typically if you have a lot of experience, that’s when you have.
Or, and or skills. You have the opportunity to join a public board. That’s a very different thing and it comes with all kinds of fiduciary responsibilities and liability and, you know, et cetera. That’s a magnitude, uh, a lot number order of magnitude higher. There was a conference I attended in, in 2019, kind that system like a whole.
Lifetime ago already, doesn’t it? Um, and it was, um, it, it was about the whole, the whole point of the, of the, the conference was getting more women on boards and they talk about different issues. Um, the one thing they didn’t talk about was, why do you [01:15:00] wanna be on the board? Right? It’s like, what do you feel you’re gonna contribute to the organization?
Um, and I understand they were trying to have a more of a larger conversation about changing the, the percentages of men, you know, women, the lack of women on the boards. But I think also that’s an important conversation that wasn’t happening because I think a lot of people like to what you’re saying, it’s not about ego.
I think some people think, well, that’s the next lo, next logical step in my career for whatever reason. But no one stops to think about why. And once you, once you’ve solved that why, then I think that will better help you align with the right fit on what board to be on. Is there anything else you’d, you know, any other, um, uh, advice or or perspective you’d like to offer to, um, executives or, or soon to be board members?
Well, I guess if we’re all lucky enough to do what we love. And be able to do also what we’re good at. I think that’s the unique combination. You know, do do more of what you’re good at and, and keep doing that [01:16:00] because I think that that ends up, um, taking you to a place where I. You have the opportunity to, to make a profound contribution, whatever organization, whether or not you started it or you just worked there, or you’re on the board.
And, um, it’s practice, practice, practice. And then I also think there’s a rule of thumb of 80% of everything is showing up, show up and participate, and the rest is really, really hard work. Mm-hmm. So anybody out there that you, you look at and you admire, or you think, you know, life’s pretty easy, I can guarantee you that whatever they, they do or they’ve done in their careers hasn’t been easy.
Because if they make it easy, they make it look easy. They make it look, look perfect. It took a lot of hard work, right? Yeah. So, so don’t be misguided by, by somebody else’s, you know, success. Um, and, and the therefore don’t pretend right. You know, know what you’re good at and what you’re not good at. And, and takes a group of people typically to make something very successful.
And finally, my, my last [01:17:00] question is. You know, this could be a high school college, whenever, what’s the worst job you’ve ever had, and what was the, the lasting positive impact it, it had on you in your career? Hmm. I had a really great experience. It was awful experience, but it was really great experience in between years of business school and instead of taking the, the internship.
I was gonna be good at, um, I took one that, that I thought sounded a little more glamorous or had the pizazz and I was, spent some time with a, a strategic consultancy company and the word strategic, uh, I didn’t understand that my job in the summer was to, uh, try and do hardcore statistical analysis of, of certain market trends.
And not only was it boring, but I’ll tell you I’m not a statistician. And so it was a real lesson in, oh, learning what you don’t want to do or what you’re not [01:18:00] good at. Uh, and that, uh, will, will forever be with me. You know, this experience is of, oh boy, I don’t want that job. It doesn’t matter when you start, you know, if you’re 15 and mowing lawns, which I did.
Yeah. Um, all the way up through. Through some of those formative experiences where you’re in over your head for sure. Nice. Well, um, Heather, I definitely appreciate your time and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation and, um, thanks so much for, for being on the CXO Conversations podcast. Oh, Michael, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for the opportunity. No problem. And, uh, for everyone who’s joining us, um, thanks. Uh, check us out on your favorite, uh, podcast platform, um, and you can follow me on Twitter at m Mitchell Winnel Mitchell at 52 80. Um, thanks for joining us. Thanks, Heather. Cheers. You take care. [01:19:00] Bye-bye.
